Game Design Masterclass: Going Diceless

While they are pretty (oh so pretty) you don’t actually need dice to play a role-playing game. If we don’t mind the Gamemaster fiddling with results to improve the story (when players do it, that’s just cheating) how much do we really need to roll something? Some GMs say they only roll as they love the sound the dice make. So if you are fudging anyway, why not go the whole hog and be open...

While they are pretty (oh so pretty) you don’t actually need dice to play a role-playing game. If we don’t mind the Gamemaster fiddling with results to improve the story (when players do it, that’s just cheating) how much do we really need to roll something? Some GMs say they only roll as they love the sound the dice make. So if you are fudging anyway, why not go the whole hog and be open about not using dice at all?

amberdicelessrpg.jpg

In 1991Eric Wujcik went that far with the Amber Diceless RPG, a game that blew my mind when I first came across it. Amber is based on the series of novels of the same name by Roger Zelazny. In the setting, only the feudal castle Amber and its lands are truly real, and the many other worlds (ours included) are mere reflections of it. The noble family who rule compete constantly for control of Amber, as nothing else in the multiverse truly matters.

While there are no dice used in Amber, it’s not entirely fair to call it systemless or entirely narrative. Resolving conflicts is done by comparing the attributes of those involved (Warfare, Psyche, Strength and Endurance). But these are not usually rated by a number. For the most part they are rated between the player characters as who is the best. Unless someone cheats in some way, the best person will win any conflict. When it comes to NPCs the GM simply decides secretly if the NPC is better or worse than the PC in question.

It’s quite common in narrative games for players to get stuck for ideas. One thing dice are good at doing is forcing a result. But Amber offers some basic options players can use to get clues about how good their opponent is. For instance, in a sword fight you might begin by declaring you are going all out to defend yourself. If you seem to be holding your own you might be pretty evenly matched. If your opponent is still landing the odd blow you are clearly in trouble. Every scene is a back and forth between players and Gamemaster until a conclusion is reached.

While Amber can be a little tricky to find these days, the system was revised by Rite Publishing with a new setting as Lords of Gossamer and Shadow. But another well known adaptation of the system is Jenna Moran’s Nobilis where each character is the embodiment of an aspect of the universe. Nobilis takes the system another step further by putting some points to the character’s attributes. This lets you ask a simple question each time they face opposition – ‘do you want to win enough to spend a point?’ Doing so is pretty much a guarantee of a win, but you only have so many points to use. There are also elements of diceless play to be found in many other dice-based RPGs that tilt towards the narrative like Smallville and Invisible Sun.

You may have noticed by now that the characters in most diceless games are a little more powerful than most player characters. They are often Gods or Lords and Ladies of the universe. It’s this level of play that suits diceless best as it allows you to ignore all the small stuff. Scenes are about shaping the universe not picking a lock. You can assume the characters are all potent enough to just worry about the big issues where it is worth spending their points or working out how to deal with the bad guy.

While a diceless game is a lot of fun, it will test your imagination whether you are a player or a Gamemaster. It can take some getting used to. In most games the players are used to the dice defending them from the Gamemaster. The GM sets a problem and the players escape it by succeeding at a dice roll. While it might not always look like it, dice are the player’s only defense.

When you first play a diceless game it is easy to fall into the trap of playing as you would with dice, and just making up what happens. This generally leads to the GM doing all the talking and trying to figure out results for everything. If a pit opens up in front of the characters, who falls in? You can’t roll so it’s the GM deciding to potentially kill your character off. There are no dice to protect you by making a Dexterity roll or the like.

So the key to running a diceless game is actually player input. Instead of waiting for the GM to interpret the dice roll the players should be the ones to decide what happens to their characters when presented with a situation. When presented with a pit, one might describe leaping across, but another might decide they’ve almost fallen in and are clinging onto the edge for dear life.

It’s a tricky style of play to master as it goes against a lot of habits you never knew you’d picked up rolling dice. For this reason alone it is a good idea to try it at least once and see how your group reacts. It can be liberating but also a lot of hard work. Without any clues from the dice as to how you’ve done, you have to make those decisions yourself.

While diceless might not be for everyone – and I’m not suggesting it’s innately any better than using dice – it is also a good way for a player to train as a GM. It lets the player invest in the story and make decisions about their character’s adventure that are usually left to the GM. Essentially it teaches how to play with everyone writing the story as a whole, rather than just their character’s part in it. As a final note, it’s also a pretty good way to play an RPG on a long car journey where you don’t have a surface to roll dice on and the driver can’t keep looking at their character sheet.
 

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Andrew Peregrine

Andrew Peregrine

clearstream

(He, Him)
As protagonists, they can create whatever narrative they like until some antagonist comes along to oppose them. This is the essence of any good story.
Now that's a bold claim :) I suppose one might defend it by holding that wherever the world offers any appearance of independence from the whims of protagonists, in fact there is an antagonist known or unknown - the world itself, possibly - that opposes them. Animism writ large.
 

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Now that's a bold claim :) I suppose one might defend it by holding that wherever the world offers any appearance of independence from the whims of protagonists, in fact there is an antagonist known or unknown - the world itself, possibly - that opposes them. Animism writ large.
I see it this way - In amberverse if you are Amberite/Chaosite your influence of reality is arguably that large it takes another of your kind for the world to be ahem "real" enough oppose or challenge you.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
2) There is a ‘luck’ element in the game - called “Good Stuff/Bad Stuff” - that is based on whether the player underspends or overspends their allotted 100 points when everything is calculated. If you overspend, you end up with an unlucky character and this gives the GM an indication that they can adjudicate against you or just throw more challenges your character's way. If you underspend, the GM would take it easy on you.
Very abstracted it bothered me. Its a bit like going oh well you are bigger and more badass more of the enemies concentrate on you (making you more significant to that conflict story) you carry more of the swing.

Also yes ADRPG sort of models luck but would you say there is a strategic choice and resource element? I would say not so much.
 

Very abstracted it bothered me. Its a bit like going oh well you are bigger and more badass more of the enemies concentrate on you (making you more significant to that conflict story) you carry more of the swing.

Also yes ADRPG sort of models luck but would you say there is a strategic choice and resource element? I would say not so much.
Well, it can be strategic, in as much as player has final say about how much Good Stuff/Bad Stuff he elects to have for the character. Its not a resource that acts as a currency though. I’m not sure it determines the significance of you character to the plot as much as the manner of the story you want your character to experience.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, it can be strategic, in as much as player has final say about how much Good Stuff/Bad Stuff he elects to have for the character. Its not a resource that acts as a currency though.
Effectively one choice (strategy for being a character is done now everything else is tactical). Pretty much like saying if you like strategic choice or resource management ummm nope nope nope.

I’m not sure it determines the significance of you character to the plot as much as the manner of the story you want your character to experience.
There is no such thing as bad publicity is a saying based on the phenomena.

I will try to explain why I feel this applies in context.

A superman without kryptonite has nearly impossible to write stories. (less impactful less interesting)

Disadvantages very much do impact story a character with no disadvantage and instead moderate to small things has less impact on story both in positive ways and "negative ways", It's about influence on the story... not about character umm empowerment.

To put it another way stories where bad things happen are more Dramatic and feel larger than life and things with more extreme positive abilities are also more Dramatic and both really are good things and gaining oen and simultaneously the other is just a Win Win. Some games let player choose failures its kind of related and definitely gives bolder bigger role in the story when you do that if you didnt allow one character that choice you would see them having much smaller impact.

Other games can show the problem In Gurps picking a disadvantage meant the DM was supposed to make that choice come into play in effect front loading benefits creating a story obligation on the DM that is what stuff does too (but its not actualy as flavorful as the more well defined ones).

Games almost always limit the number of disads you can take for this reason.

Fate removed that front loading (and tied disads to advantages as something called aspect) and made it so that if something came up disadvantageous in actual play you were compensated with subsequent future empowerment. It removed some obligation (but DMs actually want and get the handles by those aspects existing so the impact is still there and variable depending on how well you chose your aspects)

The base of Fate was Fudge and was designed by people who were fond of Amber btw.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
I see it this way - In amberverse if you are Amberite/Chaosite your influence of reality is arguably that large it takes another of your kind for the world to be ahem "real" enough oppose or challenge you.
I meant rather the claim that it was the essence of any good story. That protagonists can do what exactly they like until antagonists stop them. Setting aside non-fantasy stories, I think the fantasy world itself and its imaginary physics can form the heart of a great story. For example, in Earthsea there is a truth to reality that is greater than any of the characters.

I know that there is a seam of fantasy fiction in which what you say is very much the case. But those are not the only good stories.
 

Effectively one choice (strategy for being a character is done now everything else is tactical). Pretty much like saying if you like strategic choice or resource management ummm nope nope nope.
It doesn’t bill itself as a resource management system, but it doesn’t mean the choices made in character generation can’t be strategic. Indeed, the Attribute makes it strategic in inception.

There are diceless games based on resource management, like Nobilis or the Marvel Supers game in the early 2000s. These rely on spending Miracle points or similar, to boost ability scores to certain levels. If that is what you prefer then you should check them out.

There is no such thing as bad publicity is a saying based on the phenomena.

I will try to explain why I feel this applies in context.

A superman without kryptonite has nearly impossible to write stories. (less impactful less interesting)

Disadvantages very much do impact story a character with no disadvantage and instead moderate to small things has less impact on story both in positive ways and "negative ways", It's about influence on the story... not about character umm empowerment.

To put it another way stories where bad things happen are more Dramatic and feel larger than life and things with more extreme positive abilities are also more Dramatic and both really are good things and gaining oen and simultaneously the other is just a Win Win. Some games let player choose failures its kind of related and definitely gives bolder bigger role in the story when you do that if you didnt allow one character that choice you would see them having much smaller impact.

Other games can show the problem In Gurps picking a disadvantage meant the DM was supposed to make that choice come into play in effect front loading benefits creating a story obligation on the DM that is what stuff does too (but its not actualy as flavorful as the more well defined ones).

Games almost always limit the number of disads you can take for this reason.

Fate removed that front loading (and tied disads to advantages as something called aspect) and made it so that if something came up disadvantageous in actual play you were compensated with subsequent future empowerment. It removed some obligation (but DMs actually want and get the handles by those aspects existing so the impact is still there and variable depending on how well you chose your aspects)

The base of Fate was Fudge and was designed by people who were fond of Amber btw.
I think serendipity plays as much a role in literature and fiction, traditionally, as misfortune does. It really comes down to how a GM chooses to interact with the characters as a collective also.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
There is no such thing as bad publicity is a saying based on the phenomena.
Perhaps I didnt break that down enough
The elements of a story which garner more attention are more potent and more dramatic.
The foundation of the saying is basically the same as the concept of attention seeking or garnering attention, it is sought out regardless of being being positive or negative because it is confirmation of a sort. The bad stuff mechanics are basically simultaneously enabling more points used positively and so more positive attention and simultaneously more negative attention.
 

Perhaps I didnt break that down enough
The elements of a story which garner more attention are more potent and more dramatic.
The foundation of the saying is basically the same as the concept of attention seeking or garnering attention, it is sought out regardless of being being positive or negative because it is confirmation of a sort. The bad stuff mechanics are basically simultaneously enabling more points used positively and so more positive attention and simultaneously more negative attention.
You are associating a game mechanic with a saying that doesn’t necessarily follow. Story elements can be based on ‘good stuff’ or ‘bad stuff’ or neither. There is no extra attention that needs to be given to a player with bad stuff beyond the general notion that they won’t be as lucky in situations or as favorable in the reaction of others.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I meant rather the claim that it was the essence of any good story. That protagonists can do what exactly they like until antagonists stop them. Setting aside non-fantasy stories, I think the fantasy world itself and its imaginary physics can form the heart of a great story. For example, in Earthsea there is a truth to reality that is greater than any of the characters.

I know that there is a seam of fantasy fiction in which what you say is very much the case. But those are not the only good stories.
Oh sure just saying it was in context valid not that it applied as much universally.
 

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