Game Mechanics And Player Agency

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.
The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.


From the very first iteration of Dungeons & Dragons in 1974, there have been mechanics in place in RPGs to force certain decisions upon players. A classic D&D example is the charm person spell, which allows the spell caster to bring someone under their control and command. (The 1983 D&D Basic Set even includes such a possible outcome in its very first tutorial adventure, in which your hapless Fighter may fall under the sway of Bargle and "decide" to let the outlaw magic-user go free even after murdering your friend Aleena!)

It didn't take long for other RPGs to start experimenting with even greater mechanical methods of limiting player agency. Call of Cthulhu (1981) introduced the Sanity mechanic as a way of tracking the player-characters' mental stress and degeneration in the face of mind-blasting horrors. But the Temporary Insanity rules also dictated that PCs exposed to particularly nasty shocks were no longer necessarily in control of their own actions. The current edition of the game even gives the Call of Cthulhu GM carte blanche to dictate the hapless investigator's fate, having the PC come to their senses hours later having been robbed, beaten, or even institutionalized!

King Arthur Pendragon debuted in 1985 featuring even more radical behavioral mechanics. The game's system of Traits and Passions perfectly mirrors the Arthurian tales, in which normally sensible and virtuous knights and ladies with everything to lose risk it all in the name of love, hatred, vengeance, or petty jealousy. So too are the player-knights of the game driven to foolhardy heroism or destructive madness, quite often against the players' wishes. Indeed, suffering a bout of madness in Pendragon is enough to put a player-knight out of the game sometimes for (quite literally) many game-years on end…and if the player-knight does return, they are apt to have undergone significant trauma reflected in altered statistics.

The legacies of Call of Cthulhu and King Arthur Pendragon have influenced numerous other game designs down to this day, and although the charm person spell is not nearly as all-powerful as it was when first introduced in 1974 ("If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the 'charm' is dispelled[.]"), it and many other mind-affecting spells and items continue to bedevil D&D adventurers of all types.

Infringing on player agency calls for great care in any circumstance. As alluded to at the top of this article, GMs already have so much power in the game, that to appear to take any away from the players is bound to rankle. This is likely why games developed mechanical means to allow GMs to do so in order to make for a more interesting story without appearing biased or arbitrary. Most players, after all, would refuse to voluntarily submit to the will of an evil wizard, to faint or flee screaming in the presence of cosmic horror, or to attack an ally or lover in a blind rage. Yet these moments are often the most memorable of a campaign, and they are facilitated by behavioral mechanics.

What do you think? What's your personal "red line" for behavioral mechanics? Do behavioral mechanics have any place in RPGs, and if so, to what extent? Most crucially: do they enhance narrative or detract from it?

contributed by David Larkins
 

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"The Duke would like you to rescue his daughter before the kidnappers kill her. He'll pay 100g."
"Mmm...thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather go back to the cave complex and see if we can steal the magic beer stein from the duerger..."
(Rolls) "Sorry, but he rolled a nat 20 on his Persuade check. You are persuaded."

Not a table I'd be at for very long.
Likewise, but I think for different reasons.

"You are persuaded."

To find the door, yep.

Agree... As gm i have tons at my disposal to not make this a no choice quest due to die roll. How pathetic a duke if he cannot get even this done?
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning as to why the duke is pathetic. One way duke's get things done is by persuading others to do them; which is exactly what is being suggested in the example (ie the duke persuades the PCs to help).

Huh? "I'm the toughest guy there is" is not fair game. Despite an absolute preponderance of evidence, if I want my character to believe he is the toughest guy around...or the bravest, or the shrewdest, etc....then that's my prerogative.

I think what you are referring to is whether or not he is actually so tough that he can shrug off a mechanic that says he takes damage, or stand tall to a mechanic that specifies he must flee, etc., and why those are categorically different. By the categorization you are emphasizing, they aren't.

But that's only because you don't value the categorization I use: whether or not my character's emotions and thoughts are being dictated. And, unless it is supernatural or magical, it is never ok to dictate those thoughts.
Well, like I said, I'm not talking about the PC's self-conception, I'm talking about the player's conception of his/her character (so the "I" in "I'm the toughest guy there is" is doubly-referring, to both player and PC - I think this is pretty common in 1st person RPGing conversation.)

Being the toughest guy there is doesn't mean that I can shrug of anything - there might be some blows so heavy even the toughest guy there is can't handle them. But clearly (just to pick on an easy D&D example) the toughest guy there is isn't going to beaten by a kobold in a wrestling or boxing match!

If the system allows that conception of the character to be refuted (eg because the PC does get beaten by a kobold in a wrestling match) then that is something that is important to me about the system. Like I tried to explain upthread, it's not a reason I won't like the system, but I want the system to be deliberate in the way it lets this happen. Deliberate isn't very precise here, and is a bit metaphorical, but I hope the earlier post gives some idea of what I mean. An example of a system that is non-deliberate in this respect would be Moldvay Basic, and other low-level D&D other than 4e.

What produced the tone of puzzlement in my earlier posts, that you remarked upon, is that while I can read your words, and (as best I can tell) I can understand them, I'm having trouble grasping the aesthetic perspective that (A) doesn't, in general, care about protecting the player's conception of the PC, but (B) does get ultra-protective about it if (i) the aspect of that conception is what the PC thinks and feels, and (ii) the possible refutation is not coming from what, in the fiction, is a magical source.

I'm not feeling the aesthetic significance of these particular points of demarcation - your categorization.

(Of course, you're not under any obligation to explain/elaborate if you don't care to! I'm just trying to answer your question about puzzlement.)
 

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What produced the tone of puzzlement in my earlier posts, that you remarked upon, is that while I can read your words, and (as best I can tell) I can understand them, I'm having trouble grasping the aesthetic perspective that (A) doesn't, in general, care about protecting the player's conception of the PC, but (B) does get ultra-protective about it if (i) the aspect of that conception is what the PC thinks and feels, and (ii) the possible refutation is not coming from what, in the fiction, is a magical source.

I'm not feeling the aesthetic significance of these particular points of demarcation - your categorization.

(Of course, you're not under any obligation to explain/elaborate if you don't care to! I'm just trying to answer your question about puzzlement.)

Excellent explanation. And I do understand why, if you don't appreciate the aesthetic difference, there would be puzzlement over the distinction. Not what the distinction is, which you seem to understand, but why it's important to make the distinction.

I think we should leave it at "I really don't like Pointillism" without me being able to persuade somebody else that Seurat is not aesthetically pleasing.

Cheers!
 
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Social encounters and how the rules work are the most tricky to GM. But here you seem to be advocating that if an NPC rolls a nat. 20 on an attack roll, or another skill against a player, that it's fine that working as per RAW, but if it's a persuade check, you'd walk away from the table?

Ummm...how about because there is no actual rule that says creature A must do whatever creature B says, if B succeeds on a Persuade roll?

By "walk away from the table" I'll assume you mean that I might graciously decline future invitations, and not that I would storm off in a hissy fit as soon as the DM made the ruling. (Because who on the Internet would twist somebody's words into an extreme caricature in order to make them look irrational?) So, yes, I would.

With the same logic, would you advocate the GM ignoring a nat. 20 from the social skilled character in the group when they try to convince the King to up the reward?

Depends on how much they were asking for. Even a Nat 20 isn't a Compulsion spell.

The larger difference is that the King is a Non-Player Character. Not a "DM Character", a Non-Player Character. Social skills are there to help the DM make "neutral" decisions on behalf of NPCs. In other words, the PC's mind and thoughts are the player's mind and thoughts, but that is not true between NPC and DM. So it's handy (but not necessary) to let the dice make decisions.

This is just how I play, and interpret the game. I make no claims for official D&D philosophy.
 
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In our current Pathfinder game my DM would simply have a court mage standing beside the duke casting a Geas on the PC party to make sure they accept his 'offer'.

Yeah, it sucks.

But, according to the prevailing opinions in this thread, that action is perfectly fine. I absolutely cannot use skills on the PC's, but, spells are perfectly fine.

So, what's the problem? Why does it suck?
 

But, according to the prevailing opinions in this thread, that action is perfectly fine. I absolutely cannot use skills on the PC's, but, spells are perfectly fine.

So, what's the problem? Why does it suck?

I really hope you are being disingenuous with that question, as a rhetorical technique to suggest a contradiction in...and thus discredit...the underlying opinion.

If you genuinely don't understand why it would suck to have a DM do that let me know and I will spell out the answer.
 
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Ewwww.

Not a table I'd be at for very long.

If you want to complain on the basis of your assumption that I assumed you would storm off in a 'hissy fit' as you put it (which I did not) - try to put you point across on how you would react in a way which doesn't strongly imply you find such a ruling distasteful and intolerable enough to stay at.

Something like "With a ruling like that, if I couldn't convince the GM away from the table to be more flexible, I'd probably withdraw from the game." would have better.
 

The larger difference is that the King is a Non-Player Character. Not a "DM Character", a Non-Player Character. Social skills are there to help the DM make "neutral" decisions on behalf of NPCs. In other words, the PC's mind and thoughts are the player's mind and thoughts, but that is not true between NPC and DM. So it's handy (but not necessary) to let the dice make decisions.
This distinction somehow feels artificial, fake, weak, nonexistant, and forced as a means to avoid the possibility that players be subject to similar social rules as NPCs. I don't think this is a particularly compelling argument. Why is that not true? That is the glaring gap that exists in the argument. Because it sounds like you are telling GMs that they are not getting in the headspace of the NPCs in the manner that players do with their PCs. That's almost offensive towards GMs. I have seen GMs more in their NPCs headspace than I have seen players with their PCs. So it seems that your "difference" has only been artificially constructed to preserve an "immunity" for your PC from being subjected to the same mechanics that GM NPCs are subjected to following.
 

If you want to complain on the basis of your assumption that I assumed you would storm off in a 'hissy fit' as you put it (which I did not) - try to put you point across on how you would react in a way which doesn't strongly imply you find such a ruling distasteful and intolerable enough to stay at.

Something like "With a ruling like that, if I couldn't convince the GM away from the table to be more flexible, I'd probably withdraw from the game." would have better.

Oh, gosh, I've been put in my place. I'm sure this has nothing to do with your general annoyance with me. I'll try harder to adhere to your expectations in the future.

/yawn
 

This distinction somehow feels artificial, fake, weak, nonexistant, and forced as a means to avoid the possibility that players be subject to similar social rules as NPCs. I don't think this is a particularly compelling argument. Why is that not true? That is the glaring gap that exists in the argument. Because it sounds like you are telling GMs that they are not getting in the headspace of the NPCs in the manner that players do with their PCs. That's almost offensive towards GMs. I have seen GMs more in their NPCs headspace than I have seen players with their PCs. So it seems that your "difference" has only been artificially constructed to preserve an "immunity" for your PC from being subjected to the same mechanics that GM NPCs are subjected to following.

Wow. How do you really feel?

When I DM/GM I like this approach because, having (largely) perfect knowledge of the world I can't really negotiate in good faith. I don't have to worry about being either too lenient or too adversarial with the players. So, yeah, maybe I'm being "offensive" toward myself, but I don't want to be in that position. The dice decide.

I assume, on the other hand, that players are maneuvering for what is most advantageous for their goals (regardless of whether those are powergaming or roleplaying goals). Good. They should be. They don't need dice to tell them what they think.
 

Or the bushes did not rustle at the time his attention was on them and not the owl that hooted off the other way.
Still about what the character thinks. On failed perception he hears an owl, thinks, "oh, that might be important" looks over in that direction, and misses the stealthy enemy's movement; on the same roll but with a higher perception bonus such that he succeeds, he hears the owl (because success doesn't make you deaf anymore than failure makes you blind), thinks "that's just an owl," ignores the distraction and spots the enemy.

It's skill checks "telling" you how your character thinks & reacts.

But, according to the prevailing opinions in this thread, that action is perfectly fine. I absolutely cannot use skills on the PC's, but, spells are perfectly fine.
So, what's the problem? Why does it suck?
Still a railroad. Whether the DM uses a Geas-casting uberwizard or a Diplomancer to send the PCs on a quest whether the players want to go (or feel their characters wouldn't want to go) or not, it's still a pretty heavy-handed 'hook.'

And, it's not like the DM can't persuade the party to go on any given quest, without resorting to either, he just presents the quests in terms they'll go for, then switches it once they're committed. So, rather than say "the Duke offers you 100gp to save his daughter" the DM offers them 10,000 gp, then, later, it's revealed that there's 9900 gp in taxes withheld, or it's 10,000 local gold /pennies/ not standard gold pieces, and comes to 100gp, or the written contract says 100. The difference is just whether the group wants tricking the PCs to be based on the abilities of the PCs, or if the DM is just going to arbitrarily decide when tricks succeed, and describe things accordingly.
 

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