Game Mechanics And Player Agency

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.
The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.


From the very first iteration of Dungeons & Dragons in 1974, there have been mechanics in place in RPGs to force certain decisions upon players. A classic D&D example is the charm person spell, which allows the spell caster to bring someone under their control and command. (The 1983 D&D Basic Set even includes such a possible outcome in its very first tutorial adventure, in which your hapless Fighter may fall under the sway of Bargle and "decide" to let the outlaw magic-user go free even after murdering your friend Aleena!)

It didn't take long for other RPGs to start experimenting with even greater mechanical methods of limiting player agency. Call of Cthulhu (1981) introduced the Sanity mechanic as a way of tracking the player-characters' mental stress and degeneration in the face of mind-blasting horrors. But the Temporary Insanity rules also dictated that PCs exposed to particularly nasty shocks were no longer necessarily in control of their own actions. The current edition of the game even gives the Call of Cthulhu GM carte blanche to dictate the hapless investigator's fate, having the PC come to their senses hours later having been robbed, beaten, or even institutionalized!

King Arthur Pendragon debuted in 1985 featuring even more radical behavioral mechanics. The game's system of Traits and Passions perfectly mirrors the Arthurian tales, in which normally sensible and virtuous knights and ladies with everything to lose risk it all in the name of love, hatred, vengeance, or petty jealousy. So too are the player-knights of the game driven to foolhardy heroism or destructive madness, quite often against the players' wishes. Indeed, suffering a bout of madness in Pendragon is enough to put a player-knight out of the game sometimes for (quite literally) many game-years on end…and if the player-knight does return, they are apt to have undergone significant trauma reflected in altered statistics.

The legacies of Call of Cthulhu and King Arthur Pendragon have influenced numerous other game designs down to this day, and although the charm person spell is not nearly as all-powerful as it was when first introduced in 1974 ("If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the 'charm' is dispelled[.]"), it and many other mind-affecting spells and items continue to bedevil D&D adventurers of all types.

Infringing on player agency calls for great care in any circumstance. As alluded to at the top of this article, GMs already have so much power in the game, that to appear to take any away from the players is bound to rankle. This is likely why games developed mechanical means to allow GMs to do so in order to make for a more interesting story without appearing biased or arbitrary. Most players, after all, would refuse to voluntarily submit to the will of an evil wizard, to faint or flee screaming in the presence of cosmic horror, or to attack an ally or lover in a blind rage. Yet these moments are often the most memorable of a campaign, and they are facilitated by behavioral mechanics.

What do you think? What's your personal "red line" for behavioral mechanics? Do behavioral mechanics have any place in RPGs, and if so, to what extent? Most crucially: do they enhance narrative or detract from it?

contributed by David Larkins
 

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snip

In any event, let's take the argument to the other extreme: if dice rolls for mental/emotional actions take precedence over player thoughts/desires, how do we handle puzzles and riddles? If the player solves a puzzle, but his character fails an Int check, does that mean he fails the puzzle? If so, why bother to have actual puzzles in the game? Why not just describe them abstractly? "You encounter some kind of puzzle with spinning wheels and shapes and symbols on them. Make an Int check to see if you can solve it." "Yup, you find the solution, and with a click the doors open..."

Thoughts?

Personally, I'd be perfectly happy ejecting puzzles out of the game. Hate them. Mystery is great. But puzzles and riddles? Yeah, not something I ever, ever use in a game.
 

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"It's skill checks "telling" you how your character thinks & reacts. "

No... Stealth roll determinedcwhether you spotted the npc and there are lots of ways that resolves without also telling you your character's thought.

Made roll get spotted info. Failed roll get unspotted info.

Dukes persuasion...

Made roll i present a compelling case then you. You get persuasive input.

Failed roll i make unconvincing case, you get non-persuasive input.

In each case you then choose your reactions.

Not really though. Because the Duke's persuasion check gives the same input because it's not like the DM is going to give you two different speeches depending on the die roll. But, in any case, the failed spot check also tells you what your character is thinking - ie. there is nothing to investigate over there. There really is no distinction.
 

Not really though. Because the Duke's persuasion check gives the same input because it's not like the DM is going to give you two different speeches depending on the die roll. But, in any case, the failed spot check also tells you what your character is thinking - ie. there is nothing to investigate over there. There really is no distinction.
Actually i do use the persuasion check to guide the input and output. Sometimes its a passive check.

I am not reading some boxed text...after all.

As for your belief that not noticing something is some decision, nothing i can do about that. Guess all those folks hit by cars crossing the street really wanted to get hit.
 

Personally, I'd be perfectly happy ejecting puzzles out of the game. Hate them. Mystery is great. But puzzles and riddles? Yeah, not something I ever, ever use in a game.

Same. I never use puzzles. But it's for a reason related to the principle I've been espousing: puzzle and riddle solving belongs in the domain of what the character "thinks" so you can't use dice rolls, but to not use dice rolls is also problematic. So out they go.

But for players/DMs who don't believe in the sanctity of the character's thoughts it shouldn't be a problem at all.

Not really though. Because the Duke's persuasion check gives the same input because it's not like the DM is going to give you two different speeches depending on the die roll.

As with [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION], I would definitely vary the speech depending on the die roll. I use, or strive to use, roll-then-narrate, not narrate-then-roll.

But, in any case, the failed spot check also tells you what your character is thinking - ie. there is nothing to investigate over there. There really is no distinction.

Hmm, I don't believe so. Let's say my character is on watch, and you decide a goblin is sneaking up and hiding behind the well, and you ask me to make a Perception check. Or, better yet for the purposes of this What If, let's say you make my Perception check for me secretly, and I fail. Your conclusion is that my character doesn't think there's any reason to investigate by the well.

Then, for reasons of my own but entirely coincidentally, I say, "I guess I'll go investigate by the well." Do you allow me to do this? You just decided that my character was thinking there was no reason to do this, so now your version of what my character is thinking is in conflict with my own version of what he is thinking. Who gets to decide?

Sure, it's a contrived scenario, and you can improvise around it*, but hopefully it illustrates the problem with going beyond the simple sensory interpretation of "you don't detect the goblin" and venturing into "you are thinking X".

A lot of people would scream and yell about this (if they ever found out) but I'd even be ok with the DM simply relocating the goblin, so that my serendipitous action declaration doesn't conflict with his/her interpretation of the results of the dice roll. But what I would not be ok with is the DM saying, "Umm...no, you would have no reason to do this."

The failed Perception roll tells us what the character perceives, not what the character thinks.
 

But, you've repeatedly stated that magical mind control is okay. Your problem is with non-magical influences. So, why is this a problem?

Oops, missed this one.

I believe, given that your posts demonstrate basic literacy and sentience, that you understand that one can simultaneously support the interpretation of a game mechanic and not always support how and why a DM chooses to implement that mechanic.

I don't mind the unrealistic rules for falling damage in the game, but it would suck if a DM kept putting undetectable 200' deep pit traps in towns and villages. "But you said you don't mind the rules for falling damage!"

Can we now safely drop this particular line of inquiry?
 

If you didn't care, you wouldn't reply.

/rolls eyes

Why not change your name to 'Crushedelf'? It would after all better suit your habit of playing the 'poor victim' of every 'mean forum member' that has the temerity to disagree with your arguments, or the willingness to express common sense advice anywhere in your vicinity.

#dontfeedthetroll

Oh, Cali, of course I care. I just need space. It's not you, it's me.

Remember, we'll always have Tarantia.
 

Given that I don't allow Evil alignment, everyone just sacrificed session XP for major alignment violation.
So much for player agency in that game.

And...you give or withhold xp based on playing to alignment? Hell, that's even more old-school than me! Didn't think that was possible 'round here... :)

Lanefan
 

Same. I never use puzzles. But it's for a reason related to the principle I've been espousing: puzzle and riddle solving belongs in the domain of what the character "thinks" so you can't use dice rolls, but to not use dice rolls is also problematic. So out they go.

But for players/DMs who don't believe in the sanctity of the character's thoughts it shouldn't be a problem at all.



As with [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION], I would definitely vary the speech depending on the die roll. I use, or strive to use, roll-then-narrate, not narrate-then-roll.



Hmm, I don't believe so. Let's say my character is on watch, and you decide a goblin is sneaking up and hiding behind the well, and you ask me to make a Perception check. Or, better yet for the purposes of this What If, let's say you make my Perception check for me secretly, and I fail. Your conclusion is that my character doesn't think there's any reason to investigate by the well.

Then, for reasons of my own but entirely coincidentally, I say, "I guess I'll go investigate by the well." Do you allow me to do this? You just decided that my character was thinking there was no reason to do this, so now your version of what my character is thinking is in conflict with my own version of what he is thinking. Who gets to decide?

Sure, it's a contrived scenario, and you can improvise around it*, but hopefully it illustrates the problem with going beyond the simple sensory interpretation of "you don't detect the goblin" and venturing into "you are thinking X".

A lot of people would scream and yell about this (if they ever found out) but I'd even be ok with the DM simply relocating the goblin, so that my serendipitous action declaration doesn't conflict with his/her interpretation of the results of the dice roll. But what I would not be ok with is the DM saying, "Umm...no, you would have no reason to do this."

The failed Perception roll tells us what the character perceives, not what the character thinks.

I dunno. I think Perception rolls often include some measure of interpretation. At least, if you want more interesting options for a roll than Pass/Fail.

How often does it happen that characters in a movie or TV show are sneaking around, but they make a soft noise. Not enough to make it obvious that someone is trying to sneak around, but maybe a rustle in the leaves or something.

How often is it that the characters don't get caught because, "Eh, it's just the wind," or, "Bleeping raccoons"?

How would you handle a scenario like that with such an absolutist stance about player's control of their character's inner life?
 

I dunno. I think Perception rolls often include some measure of interpretation. At least, if you want more interesting options for a roll than Pass/Fail.

How often does it happen that characters in a movie or TV show are sneaking around, but they make a soft noise. Not enough to make it obvious that someone is trying to sneak around, but maybe a rustle in the leaves or something.

How often is it that the characters don't get caught because, "Eh, it's just the wind," or, "Bleeping raccoons"?

How would you handle a scenario like that with such an absolutist stance about player's control of their character's inner life?

I understand (and agree with) the narrative goal, but not how that bears on this discussion or how it would unfold mechanically. Do you mean the character sneaking and an NPC failing to detect him, or an NPC sneaking around and a character failing to detect him? Is this pure narrative frosting, or an actual mechanic? (The difference between, "Nope, you don't hear anything but the wind" and "The guard stops and listens, but then you hear him mutter something about raccoons.")

An illustrative example would be great?

Perhaps a mechanic like Lucky, where a player gets to re-roll a failed check?

It also calls to mind roll-then-narrate: maybe you just barely fail a Perception test, even though you suspect something is up (because the DM asked for a check, after all) so you narrate "I thought I heard something, but it's probably just raccoons."

Am I missing your point entirely? Curious.
 

Same. I never use puzzles. But it's for a reason related to the principle I've been espousing: puzzle and riddle solving belongs in the domain of what the character "thinks" so you can't use dice rolls, but to not use dice rolls is also problematic. So out they go.
If that's where you set the bar, you'd be excluding a lot of challenges and character-modeling mechanics.
 
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