Game of Death continuation thread 1

[Number47]

Now that we know Blaster is in an AMF, it opens up the huge rules mistake. Blaster cannot be in an alternate form inside an AMF. Supernatural ability. Not sure how you want to make this right? I, for one, will scream long and loud if someone gets the advantage to use supernatural abilities inside an AMF. That is one advantage too far and the build is already exceedingly powerful.

Natural rolls: seasong is gonna run it the way he's gonna run it. Just as long as I'm sure he tells me that he added in all MY bonuses, I'm good. Also, it would mean that my spellcasters can be more sure of whether certain spells had an effect or didn't.

 

[reapersaurus]

Number47 : it's not a rules mistake.
This has already been gone over, months ago.

My personal opinion is that the Alternate Form ability is Su - that is, the ability to shift forms.
Alternate, as in the verb "alterNATE".
And Blaster was not in the AMF when he shifted.
But seasong also said that "Official ruling, right or wrong, is that the form is not Su, and is not affected by the AMF."

Since now 47 has said "That is one advantage too far and the build is already exceedingly powerful," I'd prefer if this kind of biased attacking of my character builds would stop.

Nobody seems to have a problem with the things that were not included which would have made my character more powerful.
I don't see you pointing out that Blaster (a Large Half-Ogre) could easily have been considered a Huge Weretiger upon adopting the template (the same way the Monster Manual FAQ details a ghoul template as doing).
I don't see anyone pointing out how his claw attacks should be doing 2d8 damage (3d8 if Huge), like the rules now provide for....
I don't see anyone saying "let's back it up and have Marius start his escape in Blaster's square".

The build is exceedingly powerful because I built it that way, frankly.
Not because of any advantage seasong gave me, and I don't appreciate (nor he, I'm sure) your stating thus.
If you'd prefer, I could have used a load of magic items to boost his AC and attacks, and just have him use the same thing Master is using for defense, and it would be a more effective build, I'd estimate.

But it wouldn't have been as FUN, or sporting, in the long run.

Blaster can be beat - don't listen to clockwork's proddings. As much as I'd like to have you guys believe he can't be beaten (therefore you won't bother trying), trust me - Victim detailed many strategies re: Maturak and an AMF, and clockwork seemed to do pretty damn good damage last round, his statement of unkillability notwithstanding.

As for the voting, I asked seasong if it was OK to see what you guys felt about revealing the natural dice rolls were.
He seemed open to the idea, and soon (or eventually) would reveal them anyhow.
I'm just trying to get a tally - I'm not trying to sway anything, or put words in Seap's mouth (sorry for misunderstanding your intention, Seap).

<sigh>
I'd really hoped it wouldn't be me vs. multiple people again this time around....

 

[Jeremy]

Heh. Reaper, back down, you aren't being multiple attacked.

I prefer not to see the roles because while at the table I can read expressions and sometimes rolls to piece together info about my opponents, I shouldn't be able to. It's supposed to be transparent. Rolls aren't skill, they are the factor of luck, circumstance, and random what-the-hell-? in the game. Leave 'em out.

Marius may or may not go down, it may or may not be important. Everyone's gonna die right? Clockwork himself said he didn't put much work into the concept and it didn't sound like he was particularly upset in anyway. So let's smile and keep with the positive of how cool this game is so far and leave the rule mongering to the DM. If he wants our opinion, he'll ask, like he did.

I can't imagine there are any huge rulings that haven't come up already, if he decided one way or the other on them, then he decided. My job here is to have fun, not teach him or anyone else how I think the rules should work. Screw the rules, he's trying to make it fun, trust him to. Anything that ain't fun is probably gonna get nerfed by the gods anyways, in the interest of fun.

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Don't hurt me...

 

[Number47]

You seem to think we know more about your conversations with seasong than we do. None of us would have any idea if seasong had already visited the supernatural ability of a weretiger and ruled in a private e-mail on it. You also make statements that we should say so-and-so about your character's abilities. How the heck do I know if your character get 2d6 or 8d20 per attack? What do you expect me to say?

I point all things I consider to be rules errors, whether in my favor or not. I even asked seasong over e-mail to make sure he gave me the save for two of my characters versus a spell cast by one of my characters. I wanted to make sure that I suffered the penalty on an (unlikely) save failure because I took that risk. Trust me that I will point out any rules errors that favor your build, too.

Just as an aside, though, the lycanthrope shapechange ability was clarified either in the faq or sage advice. No matter the size of the original creature, the animal form is the same, meaning that some creatures shrink when they transform. Makes sense, if you think of how a human becomes a little rat. Does anyone actually have that ruling? I only remember it vaguely and would love to see the source again.

 

[seasong]

green slime: Damage Reduction for lycanthropes is not covered in the FAQ. I treat specific instances of rules as more authoritative than the general rules, but I use the general rules when I can't find a specific instance.

Regarding alternate form: Unfortunately, I have no high horse here . My ruling is technically wrong. My first reading of the ability seemed to indicate that there was no continuing magical effect while in tiger form - that the change itself was the only magical aspect.

However, given that Blaster would have been even more powerful if he'd gone with an Awakened Tiger (see my response to Number47 below), I don't think anyone on the receiving end should complain too much. Especially since he paid ECL twice for size, and also paid ECL for reach he can't use.

Number47: If you and others feel strongly about it, I am more than willing to discuss a solution. One solution would be an Awakened Tiger build - it would allow everything that has happened, happen except that Blaster would be down a bit on STR and up on BAB (and therefore total attacks). Just a quick check indicates his damage would be close to the same (his attacks averaged 24 damage each; 8 attacks of 24, and 9 attacks of 21, come within 3 hp of each other). Edit: And checking his rolls, he still wouldn't have missed on the eight attacks he originally hit on.

The other change is that he would have six more hit dice worth of killing he could take before he went down, and he would lack DR 7/silver. Given that his average hit points per hit die are likely to be considerably better than that...

We could rebuild him, but we would only make him stronger. Faster. Better than before.

Regarding bonuses: I show each person their own rolls. I am not AVERSE to giving out everyone's rolls - I just thought it would be more fun if I didn't. If y'all prefer transparency to the fog of war, I've got no beef with it. Just let me know one way or the other.

reapersarus: It's not you against multiples . We're all going to be friendly about this if I have to kill ever mother-loving one of you . Number47 is feeling frustrated, and wasn't aware that making you a lycanthrope was my way of subtly nerfing you

"Blaster can be beat": By Marius with a better initiative, for example . Seriously, he's a melee monster, but so is half the crew here. I don't see anyone crying about Saepiroth's "nearly killed Xiao Hu in one hit" or Marius doing 47 points of damage in an AMF or DMWAV's army...

...well, okay, I'M crying about that last one .

 

[seasong]

I even asked seasong over e-mail to make sure he gave me the save for two of my characters versus a spell cast by one of my characters.

Honestly, reapersaurus has done similar - a number of you have. I'm right pleased by it.

Just as an aside, though, the lycanthrope shapechange ability was clarified either in the faq or sage advice.

I've got the latest official FAQ open in front of me and it's not there, so it must be Sage Advice, which I treat as less than holy (well, okay, I treat the FAQ as less than holy, too, but it's a few steps above Sage Advice).

With that said, I go from the standard that you change into the creature itself, not into a relative-to-you version of it.

 

[Jeremy]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I like the idea that lycanthropy is a magic curse or disease and a werewolf in an antimagic field would de-wolf and come to his senses, naked and dazed and free for a moment.

But I'm all for no awakened tiger. I've actually had the opportunity to see what one of those can do. No thank you. Non magical lycanthropy is great by me!

None of us would have any idea if seasong had already visited the supernatural ability of a weretiger and ruled in a private e-mail on it

Side note in regards to this, after the nerf bopping I got, I assume that everything that made it into the game, has already been scrutinized and ruled upon. Especially iffy things self-contained in a character (anti magic lycanthrope). With the fine tooth combing I got, I assume everyone got the same so I'm perfectly fine (which is cool and a relief) with everyone elses characters cause I know for every penny I paid, everyone else had to make the same sacrifices. So less time consuming of the DM explaining his decisions and more time consuming of the DM posting the CARNAGE!!

 

[clockworkjoe]

[
"Blaster can be beat": By Marius with a better initiative, for example . Seriously, he's a melee monster, but so is half the crew here. I don't see anyone crying about Saepiroth's "nearly killed Xiao Hu in one hit" or Marius doing 47 points of damage in an AMF or DMWAV's army...

...well, okay, I'M crying about that last one .

Yes, but the AMF negates so much for everyone else coupled with the advantages of a tiger's attack routine with monk advantages that I can't see any one person outlasting him in melee, which will be the only effective method of killing him as ranged attacks just don't deal enough damage when weighed against the AMF and DR. The only real way that blaster could be killed is by attrition from several opponents, which i don't you could say about anyone else, judging from what everyone has done in the first round. If he can trip/auto grapple/deal 192 points in 1 round, how can you expect anyone to face him without magic?

 

[Jeremy]

And I'm hoping Anthony (Mr. 27 damage per arrow) put a serious pin cushioning into Blaster who can't heal in an AMF.

AMF is strong, a STR monster in an AMF is stronger (again, ask Maturak). And AMF is intimidating. It don't matter who's in it.

And there's no way to drop the field. Well, one way, but totally unreliable and even more totally unavailable.

 

[Jeremy]

Maybe someone can telekinetically throw Marius's 1000 lb corpse at Blaster and do 10d6 or so damage to him. While the AMF would stop TK, it wouldn't stop a violent thrust from outside in my opinion because it's basically just a ranged attack, the magic was at the start throwing it like a storm giant hurling a boulder.

But now I'm ganging up on characters. I want the Shredder dead for using that sur name. Maybe someone can TK him through the prismatic wall. Damn, I should played a wizard with telekinesis....