Game vs Game System

[pemerton]

Hussar, thanks for the reply.

There is one thing you don't mention, but in play it comes up often: the level of particular effects. The presence of spells like Fly at 3rd level, Knock at 2nd and so on to me gives any D&D world a very high magic flavour if I compare (for example) to RQ or even (though less so) to RM. Do you have a view on that?

I certainaly see what you're saying about Eberron vs Greyhawk. I think there's a real tension in Greyhawk. Reading what it actually was when played by its creators (eg the old Dragon adventure write-ups, or some of the characters in Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure or The Rogues Gallery) it comes across as fairly magic-heavy, at least in terms of items available to PCs, but as magic-light in its politics and sociology. This is problematic.

Then there are the NPC levels in the 1st ed list of rulers. Many high level NPCs there.

Then there are the items in the G-D-Q modules (something I've seen you post on before). Lots of loot there.

Then there's the Fiends in post-Wars GH, and the Flight of the Fiends, and Ivid the Undying and whatnot. Very high magic in every sense, I would say.

The notion that GH is actually low magic is I think to a high degree wishful thinking. And the campaign sociology really suffers from that, IMO.

 

[SSquirrel]

Then please, explain how a brand new DM can pick up 3.X and start playing without developing a starting locale (including supportive NPCs, like quest-givers, McGuffins, shopkeepers), an adventure locale, and whatnot.

"You all start in a bar..."
"Are there any girls there?"

You don't need to do any worldbuilding to start a game. People have run on the fly for years. Might not be as satisfying a game for some people compared to sitting down at a table w/someone who has enough world notes to rival Ptolus, but there's something to be said for arriving at a game w/minimal books and back strain

 

[Mieric]

What proportion of players will quit the game because they're losing all the fiddly bits of Vancean spell casting, specialisation etc? It's not outrageous to think that that's a pretty small number.

Five of the six people in my group for starters.

Though if they present a pure vancian caster option in either the PHB or DMG we'd probly switch too - if they delay it for the second PHB or DMG or later we'll have already said our goodbyes and switched systems.

 

[The Little Raven]

People have run on the fly for years.

Running on the fly is not exactly a trait common to people who are just getting into the game. Making assumptions based on what experienced players do is not the best way to design a game's core books if you want to get new players involved more quickly and easily. Just because D&D has had minimal "new DM" aids in it's core books doesn't mean that should remain the case.

 

[rounser]

They look at Eberron and say, "Wow, that's a high magic setting." But, really, it's not.

I disagree. It's most definitely a high magic setting, in that it sets out to make magic an everyday, normal part of society. It's tied up in the whole "make magic make sense" thing, and has nothing to do with the maximum NPC level of it's mages or the number of magic items they cart around.

Ubiquity and mundanity of magic make for a high magic setting. What Mordenkainen has got in his pocketses cannot compete with catching a magic taxi or whatever to your destination and no-one batting an eyelid. Catching a flying carpet to the Temple of Elemental Evil as happened in Gygax's game would, on the other hand, cause quite a stir in the rumour mill.

 

[The Little Raven]

Ubiquity and mundanity of magic make for a high magic setting.

I'd say the Lightning Rail is about as mundane as the railroad was when it was first established.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I disagree. It's most definitely a high magic setting, in that it sets out to make magic an everyday, normal part of society. It's tied up in the whole "make magic make sense" thing, and has nothing to do with the maximum NPC level of it's mages or the number of magic items they cart around.

There seem to be two definitions for high fantasy
- common magic available
- very powerful magic available

The latter is true for most "standard" D&D settings. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have several spellcasters with access to high level to epic spells, and powerful magical artifacts in place.
Eberron mostly lacks the high-level type of spellcasters, but a lot of simple magical items exist everywhere in the world.

Maybe we need two different terms for these? We could name both High Fantasy, but this would make the term less descriptive. FR and Eberron feel very different to me.
Maybe: High Magic (powerful) vs. High Power (common) vs. High Magic (common, powerful)

 

[rounser]

I'd say the Lightning Rail is about as mundane as the railroad was when it was first established.

I had the flying ships more in mind, actually, but yes, the rail is a clanger with regard to the everyday magic thing too. Even if it is novel because WOTC tells you the people think of it as novel. GH has nothing like that, because it's actively trying to be pseudomedieval rather than incorporating gimmicks as the new kid on the block. When a spaceship crashes in the mountains, it's genuinely novel, and with a footprint of a single module...not part of some magical industrial revolution.

And before you mention Halruua and it's flying ships, it's a long way away from FR's central action for a reason. Like Nimbral, it's the mysterious land on the horizon, the stuff of myth (and in doing so, makes magic more magical)...not a workaday part of society (which strips the magic out of magic).

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

This is a great thread to read through.

My own viewpoint is that whilst I'm happy to try and 'wing it' as a relatively experienced player, when it comes to DMing I'm still very much a newbie. The idea of having a town laid out in the Core books appeals greatly, as does the new & improved guidelines on creating monsters and encounters.

What I'm hoping is that for the middle ground player / DM like myself, 4e as currently advertised seems excellent. I'll have a good idea of how powerful PC's are, they won't be relying on their magic items, and creating appropriate and interesting creatures for them to face off against (by both fighting and talking) will be much easier than in any previous addition.

Currently, I'm planning on buying a lot of 4e books, including the adventures. I'm really excited to see if this system can finally help me utilise my creativity to run some great games.

 

[The Little Raven]

Even if it is novel because WOTC tells you the people think of it as novel.

What is the point of this? "Oh, it's cool because they said so?" You accuse me of being contrary in another, and I can't read this any other way. Why can't it simply be the fact that a magic-based railroad would be equally as impressive to people of that world as the real-world railroad was to us when it was first introduced? Or did you not know that people were actually amazed and impressed by it?

GH has nothing like that, because it's actively trying to be pseudomedieval rather than incorporating gimmicks as the new kid on the block. When a spaceship crashes in the mountains, it's genuinely novel, and with a footprint of a single module...not part of some magical industrial revolution.

It's actively trying to be pseudomedieval and doesn't incorporate gimmicks... like an alien spaceship crashing on a pseudomedieval world... right.

I'll believe that when me turns purple and smells like Rainbow Sherbert.