D&D General Gamer Stats From White Dwarf in the 80s

Phil on Twitter has posted a few interesting stats from White Dwarf back in the 80s. These include what games were being played in 1987, and a letter about male/female ratios in the same era. Short version: mainly D&D, very few women.

"Fascinating stuff - what RPGs were being played in the UK in 1987 ... T&T higher than you might've thought. Indiana Jones too!"

"I know people say women have always been in gaming, and that's true. But this single stat highlights why for many of us seeing a female gamer in the wild was unheard of until the Masquerade began to change things... Average readership of White Dwarf in 1987 was 16.08... Which means they'd now be 48"

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[Sacrosanct]

umm... but technically Candy Crush *is* a video game? Just like, you know... Tetris? MMORPGs are a different genre than puzzle games though. Still puzzle games are often first steps to get into the bigger world of gaming

I know it's technically a video game, but when people talk about video gamers, they're typically talking about people who play on a console or PC that are dedicated bigger budget games, not apps. A whole lot of people implied that "48% of gamers are women" meant that half of all people playing Call of Duty, or Skyrim, or Madden 2k, or WoW were women. And that's not remotely true. There are more women than before, most certainly, but not half. The results when they broke it down by game type bore that out pretty clearly.

 

[Zardnaar]

I know it's technically a video game, but when people talk about video gamers, they're typically talking about people who play on a console or PC that are dedicated bigger budget games, not apps. A whole lot of people implied that "48% of gamers are women" meant that half of all people playing Call of Duty, or Skyrim, or Madden 2k, or WoW were women. And that's not remotely true. There are more women than before, most certainly, but not half. The results when they broke it down by game type bore that out pretty clearly.

Still a game though. Men and Women tend to like different types of games.

When we do online grand strategy games 30 odd players normally 0 women . Sometimes there might be one. They're welcome to play but micromanaging religion, economics,politics, armies, leaders etc is a very niche audience.

You get some crossover in some genres like Minecraft which my niece plays. My wife likes Dragon Age andcSkyrim I like Fallout 4 which she won't play. She also likes Nintendo along with her sister.

Another big problem for D&D is it's an American designed game. That means it's going to have a very limited appeal outside of the USA, UK and the Commonwealth countries. Before anyone gets upset Monopoly is an American game and something like Settlers is not.

Let's face it it's a game where you go around and kill things. Even in 5E each class had a certain amount of built in combat ability. What defines the game is also going to limit it's appeal.

Alot of newvDMs also don't really know how to run games outside of LMoP etc. It takes a while to figure out how to run different styles of games. I can add hoc a 0 combat adventure and make it fun such as my Great Magnimar Yacht Race.

But I also got to use the AD&D traps, puzzles and B/X exploration adventures along with Kingmaker in Pathfinder.

 

[Lylandra]

It also depends heavily on the type of strategy. One of the many games I'm playing is a fantasy city building browser game. Strictly PvE, so no plundering and all player-interaction is either trade or other means of cooperation. Women are so common in this game that one of our GMs regularly calls people a "she" when she doesn't know the player's gender.

What I got from the women I play with is that especially older women tend to favor cooperation over competition. They play for fun relaxation, not for "winning". Speaking of my own family, almost all women have played some sort of video game. My mom and aunts tend to stick to puzzles (mom owned a PONG console when she was younger though), cousins also puzzles and platformers, my sister loves RPGs (traditionals like FF and adventure games like Horizon), platformers and more experimental or story-driven shooters (Last of Us, Bioshock, Overwatch, Portal) while I'm generally open for all genres except modern sports games.

Oh and I can definitely understand the Monopoly being a US game. As an adult, I've never really liked it as it is highly unfair and players get excluded too early in the game. But y'know... that's kind of the point of the game's designers.

Regarding D&D, I haven't really played AL games. But at least for me, a TTRPG needs a certain amount of RP to be worthwile. Otherwise, I could just turn on my computer and play Divinity or any other story-based tactical game. These tend to be more balanced, less RNG-heavy and have flashier graphics.

Not that I don't like strategy (I still love 4e for its tactical combat) or doing combat per se, but generally speaking combat is just the laziest solution to solve problems. You disagree over something? Just smash its skull! There, it doesn't disagree anymore!

Games that are just combat after combat after combat don't satisfy me.

 

[Venley]

Games that are just combat after combat after combat don't satisfy me.

Thank you Lylandra. That is so much my feeling too.

 

[Venley]

umm... but technically Candy Crush *is* a video game? Just like, you know... Tetris? MMORPGs are a different genre than puzzle games though. Still puzzle games are often first steps to get into the bigger world of gaming

Yes, when I see folks arguing that Farmville, etc. are not worthy of being counted as video games then it feels like the same gatekeeping as in the world of rpgs. Where I have seen men who feel that unless there is crunch, it does not count. And that arriving from the improvisational theatre end is not as worthy as arriving from the wargaming end. For me, both count in rpg-land.

 

[Zardnaar]

It also depends heavily on the type of strategy. One of the many games I'm playing is a fantasy city building browser game. Strictly PvE, so no plundering and all player-interaction is either trade or other means of cooperation. Women are so common in this game that one of our GMs regularly calls people a "she" when she doesn't know the player's gender.

What I got from the women I play with is that especially older women tend to favor cooperation over competition. They play for fun relaxation, not for "winning". Speaking of my own family, almost all women have played some sort of video game. My mom and aunts tend to stick to puzzles (mom owned a PONG console when she was younger though), cousins also puzzles and platformers, my sister loves RPGs (traditionals like FF and adventure games like Horizon), platformers and more experimental or story-driven shooters (Last of Us, Bioshock, Overwatch, Portal) while I'm generally open for all genres except modern sports games.

Oh and I can definitely understand the Monopoly being a US game. As an adult, I've never really liked it as it is highly unfair and players get excluded too early in the game. But y'know... that's kind of the point of the game's designers.

Regarding D&D, I haven't really played AL games. But at least for me, a TTRPG needs a certain amount of RP to be worthwile. Otherwise, I could just turn on my computer and play Divinity or any other story-based tactical game. These tend to be more balanced, less RNG-heavy and have flashier graphics.

Not that I don't like strategy (I still love 4e for its tactical combat) or doing combat per se, but generally speaking combat is just the laziest solution to solve problems. You disagree over something? Just smash its skull! There, it doesn't disagree anymore!

Games that are just combat after combat after combat don't satisfy me.

If you were one of my players I would at least try to mix it up. As long as you're happy with hulk smash on occasion. I don't tend to run megadungeons, but combat is often in there


Some games are very unfair online especially the more cut throat ones with pvp. We had a 3 month war that dragged in a good chunk of the server with hundreds of people each night.

Wouldn't do it again. Years ago I bought my wife Crash Team Racing on the PS1. Last week she bought herself Crash Team Racing on the Switch. More things change huh.

 

[S'mon]

I really think it was the latter. The notion of bringing "thespianism" to use a phrase, largely starts with Vampire. At least, that's around the time where a lot of that sort of "improv theater" approach to gaming started really rolling. ((Yes, I KNOW I'm painting with a really, really broad brush there. Not making a judgement, but, just a sort of general thought))

Wow, I had no idea that single sex schooling was so popular in English speaking countries. I honestly didn't know. I mean, in the US and Canada, single sex schools are pretty rare and have been since before I was born (in the 70's for anyone keeping score). I really had no idea.

My son is at a single sex Comprehensive right now!

 

[cbwjm]

Yes, when I see folks arguing that Farmville, etc. are not worthy of being counted as video games then it feels like the same gatekeeping as in the world of rpgs. Where I have seen men who feel that unless there is crunch, it does not count. And that arriving from the improvisational theatre end is not as worthy as arriving from the wargaming end. For me, both count in rpg-land.

After playing it for a while I decided that farmville wasn't a game, it was a second job. Damn that that required a lot of work to keep going.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yes, when I see folks arguing that Farmville, etc. are not worthy of being counted as video games then it feels like the same gatekeeping as in the world of rpgs. Where I have seen men who feel that unless there is crunch, it does not count. And that arriving from the improvisational theatre end is not as worthy as arriving from the wargaming end. For me, both count in rpg-land.

Farmville is a video game, but it's not what really fits as to calling someone who only plays farmville a "gamer" in the context of what a gamer is considered. I mean, technically it is, but it's like how someone who races their friends on a go cart track isn't really a race car driver, even though it technically fits the literal description.

Go up to any gamer and tell them "I"m a gamer too, I play farmville." and see the reaction. I imagine it's the same as if I went up to a race car driver and said I was a race car driver because I raced go carts. Or me saying I'm a cook because I make hot dogs. I certainly know that the people I know who only occasionally play farmville, or candy crush, do not consider themselves gamers in the sense how we define that word.

 

[Zardnaar]

Games like Farmville, Minecraft, candy crush appeal to casuals. In the 90s it was Tetris and Columns.

 

[cbwjm]

Considering some of the crazy stuff made on minecraft which would have taken hours and hours of work, I'm not sure I'd call people playing minecraft casual.

 

[ad_hoc]

It's funny because I chafed at using 'gamer' to describe people playing video games for a while.

It just sounded weird to me.

I was used to it meaning what we now term as 'hobby gamer'.

Spending countless hours painting Warhammer figures and then playing games with them on highly detailed maps is far more involved than turning on an Xbox and playing Call of Duty.

The meanings of words change over time.

 

[Sacrosanct]

My grandma occasionally plays solitaire on her computer. Who knew she was a “gamer”. She certainly wouldn’t consider herself one. I guess now I get to brag that my 97year old grandma is a gamer.

 

[Beleriphon]

My guess for part of it is that in the early pre-confederation days there just weren't enough kids in a lot of the small towns (i.e. anywhere not named Montreal, Quebec City, or Toronto) to support a school for each gender, so they all went to one school instead and thus mixed schools just became part of life.

Despite what one might think of Anne, Anne of Green Gables is a pretty good look at rural life in Canada during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[Lylandra]

I don't know whether discussing the semantics on who or what could be defined as a "gamer" via outside means leads us anywhere. The statistics have their own definition (someone who plays video games every now and then) and with that definition comes other implications, like knowing how to use the tech required to play said game (even if that's as simple as just putting on your computer... which means that 1) you own one and 2) you're not a technophobe).

Whether the people playing video games would self-identify as a "gamer" (and I guess this is the only other "definition" that could count here) is on a whole different table. One could argue that less women than men who play video games would self-identify as a gamer, but 1) I haven't seen any statistics on that question and 2) being a "gamer" has certain social connotations, which is why your grandma wouldn't want to sit in the same bus as 15 years old Timmy who plays Fortnite all day.

My own idea is that gaming (as in "playing any video game") has become so normal that we should treat it the same way as watching movies or reading books.

Going back to the thread's original topic... playing roleplaying games isn't where playing video games is yet. But I doubt that the people who make these statistics make more systematic errors than we would by, say, counting the gender tags of all ENworld forum members or looking at FLGS gatherings.

 

[Zardnaar]

Lylandra when you want to play do you do a session 0 or do you look for a specific type of game?

Forums have made me aware of session 0, our games were essentially self contained for 20 years so same group with replacements one at a time.

They left it up to me to do world building. I would check with them if I wanted to run something different like Darksun.

I had a female players in the 90s and she was into Wicca and wanted an Amazonian area of the world with a goddess so I just drew it in the map for her.

The guys didn't really care. I'll do requests, most people don't bother asking though.

 

[Lylandra]

Oh, I'm basically the same. My group has been plaing for 15 years now with the occasional break and they are more focused on the RP part as well.

I joined another group recently, but I asked the GM (a colleague of mine) about the style beforehand (homebrew world and a healthy mix of all pillars and also avoiding racial stereotypes) and the other players happen to be pretty new to the game. One of the newbies is a woman who's really enthusiastic about the game.

But yeah, I'd basically do a session zero for future groups or adding new players to new campaigns. We're still looking for someone who's as enthusiastic about being a DM as we are when it comes to playing our characters for our "old hare" group...

 

[Zardnaar]

Oh, I'm basically the same. My group has been plaing for 15 years now with the occasional break and they are more focused on the RP part as well.

I joined another group recently, but I asked the GM (a colleague of mine) about the style beforehand (homebrew world and a healthy mix of all pillars and also avoiding racial stereotypes) and the other players happen to be pretty new to the game. One of the newbies is a woman who's really enthusiastic about the game.

But yeah, I'd basically do a session zero for future groups or adding new players to new campaigns. We're still looking for someone who's as enthusiastic about being a DM as we are when it comes to playing our characters for our "old hare" group...

Gotcha I normally aim for a 4 or 5 person group and will do requests within reason.

Are you familiar with adventures like Isle of Dread? Still has combat but more exploration pillar.

I'm thinking of doing. 5E Greyhawk campaign circa 1977-83. I'll probably need a session 0 for that one so if anyone doesn't like that idea they can voice is session 0 and if it's more than 1 or 2 players don't like it it's a bad idea.