Games that didn't survive first contact. . .

[Greg K]

The problem is that people, in general and usually in specific, are actually geniuses in storytelling but absolute pants at math. Quite often the GM can't make a judgment until several sessions have gone by that Minmaxed Character A is not built in a way to allow his player to have any fun -- and neither, obviously, can Minmaxed Character A's player!

Possibly. In my experience, and that is all I have to go by, most abuses are not hard to recognize when it is invisibility always on, immune to damage, damage that can't be stopped or can destroy the world. etc.

Plus, I am probably not going to play with Minmaxed character A if he is not willing to sit down before character creation to discuss the campaign I have in mind, the power limits I envision and work to make the character fit into the game without problems (and with the understanding that I have the right to require changes if unseen problems occur).

It's better for everyone involved if the heavy lifting with numbers is done beforehand, by if-not-highly-then-at-least-paid professionals.

It's not as if professionals did not design the point based systems I mentioned. Furthermore, it's never as if the designers never mess up and leave loopholes and unbalanced material that can be abused (WOTC's Character Ops boards anyone?).

 

[Greg K]

I don't see how these are incompatible goals. From what I understand, M&M pulled off the balancing act pretty well.

Yeah, I'm not really down with blaming GMs when the design itself should at least help them out a bit.

-O

Except that
a) I have heard the same things about abuse (or potential for) labeled against M&M, Hero, BESM, and GURPS when it was the GM not wanting to a) establish limits and recognizing that part of their job in a point based system is to b) look over characters to ensure that they will work within the particular campaign being run.

b) I later acknowledged that it could be a problem with *d20* SAS once I realized that that was what the person was talking about as opposed to SAS (which is how it was originally referenced).

 

[Angrydad]

With regards to things like the examples you gave in your original post or crazy powerful PCs, most of that stuff, in my experience, can be avoided by not letting the players design characters in a vaccum and then suddenly showing up with premade characters. Granted, when you are learning the system some unexpected things might creep up, but that is going to be true of any game.



I thought you were origianlly talking about Tri-stat. I'll have to go back and see if I have the d20SAS previews and d20 Anime SRD stuff on my computer and take a look at it. That sounds like bad design and that can happen in any game not just point buy. However, I want to go back and take a look if I have the stuff availlable.


I agree you shouldn't have to stop all the time. It depends on why are you stopping. Joe running up the building and shooting energy beams does not sound like something for which I would stop the game. That is something the GM. imo, should be familar with (both in terms of mechanics and the chararacter) before the game ever starts.

As for the GM telling the story for the players, I hope you don't have preplanned stories of exactly how things will unravel.

To address the "characters in a vacuum" question: No, I have the players create characters at the same time, in the same room with me present and we still discover a seemingly balanced power combo turns into an unstoppable force. Also, sorry about not saying it was d20SAS from the get go. Confusion is so much fun. As much as I have read through the power descriptions and the rules in the SAS sourcebook, I find them to be fairly vague most of the time or absurdly specific the rest and it makes it difficult to say which powers allow the characters to do what when they try something that falls into the vast gray area of some of the power descriptions. It's very much a contextual and DM discretion sort of system, which means that there tends to be a lot of sitting down and reading the power entries just to make sure we all agree on what it allows. While it is a fun system and we house ruled the starting HP a lot to make survival a bit more possible (all characters start with 100hp+max class HD+Con mod), there are too many loopholes and too much work for the DM to do in preparation. Part of the reason I love D&D is the Monster Manual. Tons of varying baddies all ready made for my use, only a little tweaking to modify things if I want.

 

[Angrydad]

I don't see how these are incompatible goals. From what I understand, M&M pulled off the balancing act pretty well.


Yeah, I'm not really down with blaming GMs when the design itself should at least help them out a bit.

-O

While I do agree that there is a lot of responsibility on the DM's shoulders, I think it's absurd to blame the carpenter for being given flawed tools. I'm with Obryn on this.

 

[Greg K]

To address the "characters in a vacuum" question: No, I have the players create characters at the same time, in the same room with me present and we still discover a seemingly balanced power combo turns into an unstoppable force..

Just out of curiousity, did you have the players come up with concepts first and then find the stuff to build it or do you let them go through the book first?

Also, sorry about not saying it was d20SAS from the get go. Confusion is so much fun.

Hey it happens.

As much as I have read through the power descriptions and the rules in the SAS sourcebook, I find them to be fairly vague most of the time or absurdly specific the rest and it makes it difficult to say which powers allow the characters to do what when they try something that falls into the vast gray area of some of the power descriptions. It's very much a contextual and DM discretion sort of system, which means that there tends to be a lot of sitting down and reading the power entries just to make sure we all agree on what it allows.

Yeah, anytime you have an fx based system, the GM needs to be familiar. I think I spent several weeks with M&M before I was wiling to run. And then when I got 2e, I didn't spend as much time and it initially showed.

I love D&D is the Monster Manual. Tons of varying baddies all ready made for my use, only a little tweaking to modify things if I want.

I know SAS had the Role Call books. Did GOO not have stats in the books or web enhancements for d20SAS?

 

[Angrydad]

Just out of curiousity, did you have the players come up with concepts first and then find the stuff to build it or do you let them go through the book first?


Hey it happens.


Yeah, anytime you have an fx based system, the GM needs to be familiar. I think I spent several weeks with M&M before I was wiling to run. And then when I got 2e, I didn't spend as much time and it initially showed.


I know SAS had the Role Call books. Did GOO not have stats in the books or web enhancements for d20SAS?

I usually had them come up with some sort of character concept first, but they could usually accomplish that with less than the total Power Points allocated, so they'd end up with some other crazy powers. Yes, we cut down the number of Power Points to compensate, but that robbed some of the players of good concepts that just required more points. Because it is such a hassle to run, I haven't really bothered looking for additional supplements for the system. The FX basis makes things a lot of fun, don't get me wrong, but it just created too many headaches without explaining things clearly.

 

[GlaziusF]

It's not as if professionals did not design the point based systems I mentioned. Furthermore, it's never as if the designers never mess up and leave loopholes and unbalanced material that can be abused (WOTC's Character Ops boards anyone?).

Well, yes, and the point I was trying to make but, uh, forgot to actually say in there goes something like this:

Designers are responsible for the math and its consequences, not GMs and not players. They, and not the players, have the opportunity to test the math out when it isn't important to have fun.

It's like car manufacturers blaming bad drivers for axles that fall off at 75 MPH. Sure, you're speeding if you go that fast, but seriously now, axles shouldn't fall off cars at ANY speed.

 

[timbannock]

I'm curious if anyone here ever played Jovian Chronicles. This is one that I picked up at my comic shop, and *loved* the idea for, but never found anyone to play with ever. It seemed like such a cool concept for a game setting; a lot like Robotech or Gundam but not... you know...

Palladium...

-Steve

Played once and loved it, so did the players. We just never found time to dedicate to continuing it...yet. There's a campaign in the works though, and the players are ready for it, so it *should* happen.

The system's funky (I think I'd port over to Cortex system [i.e. Battlestar Gallactica RPG]), but the setting rocked. I actually had them play clones that just escaped the facility they were created in. They didn't know they were clones, believed they had amnesia, and only knew that some guy was hunting them down. So they proceeded to blast the guy's goons and find Mechs (they didn't know how they knew how to pilot the things) to get off the space station.

It was awesome.

 

[Green Knight]

Palladium: Oh God, did I TRY to like Palladium games (TMNT, PFRPG, RIFTS, etc) but combat took forever, there were nonsensical rules, and the icing was when my TMNT mutant was rendered comatose and when he awoke, found he had become homosexual(!), it was done.

After reading all five pages of this thread, I'm STILL laughing at this!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Heroes Unlimited: I picked up the book with the Steranko art. The classes looked interesting. The combat system looked decent with cool things like Roll w/ the Blow.
Then, I went to make a character. Palladium should have been sued for false advertising with the title. It is one of the most limiting superhero games I have encountered (or perhaps the most). On top of that, many of the mechanics that I disliked (for a superhero game) exposed me to the very things that I think make it necessary to go an M&M route to make a good d20/OGL superhero game.

Yeah, it is somewhat misleading as a name!

However, over the years I've gotten to appreciate it as a low-power superheroic setting. (Although not the mechanics, which are typical of the Palladium products.)

Hero System I love the character generation. However, I hate looking at a Champions character sheet and combat, in my experience, bogged down very fast. Also, I didn't care using it for magic in a fantasy game.

Bogging down or not, IME, depends upon experience. ChaGen takes a while, but things run pretty smoothly afterwards.

(Yes, I'm a HERO-phile. M&M is #2, 3.5 is #3.)

Iron Heroes: The premise for the game and my like of the Book of Iron Might is what attracted me. However, the classes, the skill groups, tokens and other mechancis just turned me completely off from the game. Hmm. 4e is almost an exact repeat and I doubt that I will look at another game by Mr. Mearls as lead developer/mechanical developer.

I'm with you 85%

Superworld, Elric!, Call of Cthulu All of these games seemed really cool. However, each time got to combat, the basics of resolution (how defense and parry worked), just turned us off. Maybe we were handling defense and parry incorrectly, but we just gave up.

Assuming you're talking about the % method that started up in RuneQuest, I didn't have much of a problem with Stormbringer (and related Moorcockian games) and CoC. Never played Superworld, though.

Marvel Superheroes Roleplaying Game: <snip>

Marvel Superheroes Adventure Game<snip>

DC Universe Roleplaying Game

By the time those games hit the shelves, HERO was my game. I couldn't stand even looking at the stat blocks and such when someone or the other tried to get me to play.

(I've changed enough as a human being and gamer that I'd at least give the games a try these days, but I don't think I'd ever run either one. Nor enjoy them as much as HERO or M&M)

AD&D 1e and 2e (these days)

I'd still play those games in a heartbeat...in fact, I'm part of an ongoing 1Ed/2Ed campaign (currently on hiatus, though).