Games That Required Too Much Buy-In: Forked Thread: Games that didn't survive...

[Jhaelen]

I'm gonna add "Ars Magica" to the list. (I'm qualifying "Buy-In" as being more than just a monetary drop.)

I agree about the initial investment required. It's not so much because you need lots of supplements but because you really have to realize that your covenant is going to be the most important 'character' of the game.

Creating an interesting covenant with enough details to stay interesting for a campaign spanning 100 years or more is a daunting task. We managed to pull it off and distributed the work, each of us would create 5 grogs, a companion, a magus, a parens, a lab, books and spells for the library, allies and enemies, etc.

We also adopted the troupe-style, each of us would select a certain theme for our adventures, i.e. one concentrated on the nearby faerie forest, one on a rival covenant, etc.

Unfortunately, it didn't last as long as I would have liked. We played about 5 adventures then different preferences pulled the setting apart. I guess, one of us should have been made the 'main storyteller' to decide on the direction the campaign should take.


As others have mentioned what makes some systems difficult to get into is that the setting is quite exotic. Even several D&D settings suffered from that problem, e.g. Darksun, Planescape and Spelljammer.

It really helped me to have read a couple of Darksun novels - I don't think I would have been able to DM it otherwise.

Planescape I didn't dare to try. Since most players find it difficult enough to properly portray their alignment I didn't think adding philosophical factions that were mostly quite odd would make things any easier. Sigil, the Outlands and regularly hopping all over the Multiverse? That was really way out there.

Spelljammer - I never like the underlying ideas so I cannot say much about it.


I think there's a third category of systems that are hard to get into. It's settings that cater to a very specific roleplaying experience. For me Wraith is the most obvious example in this category. Call of Cthulhu is another one. To a lesser degree Pendragon, Ars Magica, and the rest of the WoD bunch fit into this category as well.

 

[jmucchiello]

How could I forget Mutants and Masterminds! There is all the effort of character creation (because some people just will not take a premade character and tweak it, no matter what) and then the complexity of an unfamiliar combat system.

Combat system? Wait. M&M is basically d20. All the maneuvers and stuff are similar to D&D. I could understand there being an "unlearning curve" but not unfamiliarity.

Even if this GM establishes a fairly clear setting and every one likes comics there are so many subtle shades of super hero comics that everyone comes to the table with a different idea.

Does this require another thread fork? Games with simple, defined genre-tag where there can be wide ranges of expectations?

Too much buy-in? HERO System. Back in the day, when I wasn't working 40 hours a week and volunteering for various non-profit orgs, it wasn't an issue. Today, creating everything (including such mundane items as handguns and automobiles) from the ground up is a daunting prospect and, so far as I know, the only way around this pitfall is to throw hundreds of dollars at HERO supplements.

Man, I've heard that gripe about HERO a million times (okay, maybe only 100,000 times) and yet I've never had a problem arise in game play where we needed to know the stats for a mundane gun or car: they are in the base rules. It's modified equipment that is a pain.

My contribution to this list is SJG's In Nomine. A wonderful setting but everyone needs to read the core rules cover to cover to play it well.

 

[jdrakeh]

Man, I've heard that gripe about HERO a million times (okay, maybe only 100,000 times) and yet I've never had a problem arise in game play where we needed to know the stats for a mundane gun or car: they are in the base rules. It's modified equipment that is a pain.

I guess I should have been more clear.

I don't mean "mundane" in the context of "generic 21st Century Earth firearms" (or automobiles) but "mundane" in the context of whatever setting or genre one happens to be using HERO to emulate. Last I checked, the HERO core book doesn't have stats for lasguns, street-sweeping shotguns, monofilament whips, and other weapons that are mundane in their respective genres/settings.

These are all things that, failing the ownership of a specific supplement, have to be built from the ground up using powers. Running a gear-heavy setting or genre such as Cyberpunk or the Imperium of 40k, each of which has huge lists of commonly available yet mechanically unique weapons and vehicles, would be a nightmare using only the HERO core book under the circumstances previously described.

That said, even in a 21st Century Earth setting, if you want to play a game with a heavy focus on specialized weapons and vehicles (military and espionage campaigns come to mind), HERO demands a large amount of time investment, unless you're working with various supplements.

 

[Andor]

Man I'd love to play Unknown Armies. *sigh*

Any world that has a lot of detail to it unfortunately requires a lot of buy-in. I'm actually reluctant to play in FR campaigns for just that reason.

Games I'd love to play/run but that require the players to all read the book? World Tree, Unknown Armies, any good homebrew.

At the other end of the spectrum are game worlds that appear normal on the surface and therefore allow you to slowly unfold the weirdness to a group of ignorant PCs. Example games (IMHO) would be Call of Cthulu, Nightbane, Unknown Armies to a degree. Almost any horror game, really.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think it was because the setting if completely hopeless if it's run as the creators intend (and instruct). I love the fighting the good fight even though it's hopeless aspect of Midnight. But being a hero that can only stall the inevitable was too depressing to be a fun setting for him. That dynamic just isn't his cup of tea.

I think the default of "it's a bad world and you can't fix it, you can only make it better in small ways and stave off the inevitable" doesn't work for everyone. I've never had luck drawing my group to it, though I think it's a great setting.

The odd thing is, that same guy who dislikes Midnight, loves Call of Cthulhu! Maybe he doesn't mind that similar dynamic in CoC because he knows there is a high chance for his character's death, so he doesn't get attached.

I never liked the CoC "everyone dies" mentality, which I really only saw on the internet. In our games we had very few deaths, though sure we had an asylum visit here or there, that never took away from the plot.

CoC is easier to understand & get behind, IMO, because you're trying to preserve the world as it is, rather than Midnight's already defeated stance. It's a horror game, but that depends on elements from outside the norm.


For myself, Nephilim and Demon were the ones I couldn't convince anyone to try. They just required you to want to play that type of game and it just didn't work.

Unknown Armies, I played once, as it was a pet-game of one of the group. It's also one of those that you simply have to want to play before you get it. If you haven't been waiting for someone to make it, then it probably isn't for you.

 

[Stormborn]

Combat system? Wait. M&M is basically d20. All the maneuvers and stuff are similar to D&D. I could understand there being an "unlearning curve" but not unfamiliarity.


My contribution to this list is SJG's In Nomine. A wonderful setting but everyone needs to read the core rules cover to cover to play it well.

Nope. MnM is not DnD. It has add ons and that is enough to make it different. If you have been driving an automatic all your life a manual transmission is completly unfamiliar driving experiance. Although that is as far into semantics as I will take that argument.

I will, however, agree with you about In Nomine. I have the core book and just love the setting, but never even suggested it as a possibility due to the complexity of the rules.

 

[jmucchiello]

Nope. MnM is not DnD. It has add ons and that is enough to make it different. If you have been driving an automatic all your life a manual transmission is completly unfamiliar driving experiance. Although that is as far into semantics as I will take that argument.

Did you read the post I responded to? I was talking about combat, not power building. M&M combat is gridless D&D combat with a different damage mechanic. Once the character is created, running M&M is not a far leap from D&D.

I will, however, agree with you about In Nomine. I have the core book and just love the setting, but never even suggested it as a possibility due to the complexity of the rules.

We must exist on different wavelengths. I said the core setting requires everyone to read the book. The rules are not at all complex. IN is a very light system. The devil (heh) is in the details of all the angel and devil types. It's the nuance between the archangel relationships that make the game interesting.

 

[jdrakeh]

M&M combat is gridless D&D combat with a different damage mechanic. Once the character is created, running M&M is not a far leap from D&D.

So, basically, M&M combat is like D&D combat. . . except for the fact that, by default, it lacks a grid, rules for facing, movement measured in squares, attacks of opportunity, hit points, and rolling for damage? You know, it might just be me, but that seems like a pretty big departure from D&D (and standard d20) combat, mang

 

[Hammerhead]

Yeah, I don't see why Unknown Armies requires a whole lot of buy-in. A bunch of crazy people believe crazy things, you may or may not be one of them. Then, crazy things happen, you kill a few dozen people and win (and your Violence meter goes up a notch).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yeah, I don't see why Unknown Armies requires a whole lot of buy-in. A bunch of crazy people believe crazy things, you may or may not be one of them. Then, crazy things happen, you kill a few dozen people and win (and your Violence meter goes up a notch).

It's not so much the setting that takes buy in as it does playing a game that isn't designed around find thing - kill thing - loot thing - find new thing. Things that AREN'T that kind of game generally turns people off.