Gaming Pornography: Will 4th Edition lead to a more Realistic and Useful Game?

[Sanguinemetaldawn]

Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe.

However, Gygax also said on these very pages...
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"The major appeal of the FRPG is the fantastic, the assumption of a character role in a world filled with strange creatures, and by dint of effort building through deeds of action and intellect that game persona from a lowly adventurer to a renown figure with power and prestiege in his milieu.

There is little satisfaction in such accomplishment if it isn't earned. The basis for the D&D game, including 3E and 3.5E is not the superheroic, but the heroic.

IMO, the new system hands players on a proverbial silver platter what once had to be earned"
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Now the above quote refers more to the acquistion of character power rather than to simulation of the real world with attendant disciplines of history, theology, architecture, and so forth.

But the statement does clarify Gary's stance regarding 3E D&D character power and its acquisition, specifically, a rejection of it. While Gary would likely not care for the OP's style of play, neither does he care 3E style of play.

Also, the acquistion of character power has implications for the milieu of the character, because an at least reasonable possibility of survival for the character within the milieu is implied by the expectation of a continuous campaign.

Indeed, character power and milieu are two sides of the same coin since they are designed to constantly conflict with each other (giving rise to "game balance", the balance beiong between character power and adversary power). That coin is the base expectation of power level in the world and how that power is represented within the attendant ruleset.



By "gaming pornography" I suspect the OP is attempting to articulate what could better be expressed as heroic wish fulfillment, sort of a Superman fantasy of all sorts of powers.



The genius of 1st Ed. AD&D is something that I have begun to appreciate more and more. In this case, how it enabled both "historical simulationists", and power gamers. It seems the long term trend of D&D design is more and more toward enabling power gamers, at the expense of "historical simulationists" and others.

I suspect this is being driven by market reality, i.e. the relative willingness of the different gamer types to spend money.

It looks like the bottom line is that heroic wish fulfillment pays better because these types of gamers are willing to pay more for their wish fulfillment high.

Its interesting in the way RPGs seem to be supplanting comic books in that role.



To end this rumination and answer the OP, no, 4th edition is not moving the direction you want. If you disliked the transition from 1st/2nd Ed to 3E, you will dislike the move to 4E even more.

You will probably find games like Warhammer Fantasy RP 2nd Ed much more to your taste.

Also, email me at my above user ID (at) yahoo .dot. com. Our gaming styles have at least some similarity so lets see if we can set up a game.

 

[Shadeydm]

It's funny you should mention it in that way. Because as I described above the world in which we play is really our historical world during the time of the Byzantine empire, and although the parties face monsters and magic, it all comes from outside, it is "otherworldly and rare" yet because it is rare it is also dangerous and unpredictable. That is the players don't really "know the rules" because when they encounter monsters and magic it is "otherworldly" and so they can never really be wholly prepared. the players don't know "the rules" by which it will operate and therefore it is a big departure from the normal. And that makes it all the more exciting to them. Because they cannot control it. they do not know the rule about every spell or magical device or creature or being they encounter . And so there is far more "adventure" because like in early D&D they are more playing in the dark, unsure of what any encounter will bring, etc. in later editions of the game the rules function to make players virtual and de facto "min-DMs" who often run the game as surrogate DMs, insisting this rule or that rule because they basically know as much, if not more, about everything they encounter and how everything within that setting works, as the DM himself. The game used to be about what the DM knew, what the players had to figure out, and how those two things worked themselves out by the interplay. The DM used to be a guide into the wondrous and unknown, now he is merely a referee into the mundane. A mundane filled with magic, not technology, but as mundane to the average character as a trip to the grocery store is to the average player.

There is no room for surprise, for shock, for danger, for grit, for tension, for horror, for the bizarre, or even the magical. Magic is merely a type of ammunition, not a warping of reality. There is simply one set of super-powered magical doo-dads and doo-detts against another set of super powered NPCs and monsters, and may the most powerful win. Therefore it all comes down to a mechanical exercise in tactics and strategy, (even the magic part) rather than a fluid, adaptational, improvisational exercise in the tactics and strategy of success and survival and in triumph. In my campaign players use nearly every piece of their equipment, nearly every skill and capability, nearly every talent often and in a multitude of innovative ways. They do not have a +7 Sword of Absolute Zero for use against the unlikely encounter with the Astral Plane Hell-Spawned Immortal Demon Lich of Black Volcano Fire. Instead they have a sword. Instead they have a spear, and shield, and armor, and equipment, and their own wits and capabilities and experience and skill, and they have each other.

Most of the time they fight other men, men from other nations, other city-states, other religions, other armies, other cultures, etc. Or they make alliances with such other men, either temporary or long-term. But when they do encounter monsters and demons and creatures from elsewhere and the bizarre and unknown then they don't need the Amulet of Ultimate Repulsion made from the only one in existence single tear drop of the cross bred dragon kindred thundersnake and the ghoul bodied baslihound of Abaraskadoomland. They don't need to rely upon gadgetry and magic and rare artifacts to extract them from every situation, they do that by self-sacrifice, hard work, reliance upon each other, bravery, experimentation, loyalty, and by adapting and overcoming. To me that's adventuring and enjoyment and usefulness in a game, and the magic that fixes every problem ain't. Cause in real life you don't have the magic that fixes every problem, you got yourself, your experience, your buddies, your values, and your wits.

Excellent stuff here very well said, kudos to you sir!

 

[Shadeydm]

By "gaming pornography" I suspect the OP is attempting to articulate what could better be expressed as heroic wish fulfillment, sort of a Superman fantasy of all sorts of powers.



The genius of 1st Ed. AD&D is something that I have begun to appreciate more and more. In this case, how it enabled both "historical simulationists", and power gamers. It seems the long term trend of D&D design is more and more toward enabling power gamers, at the expense of "historical simulationists" and others.

I suspect this is being driven by market reality, i.e. the relative willingness of the different gamer types to spend money.

It looks like the bottom line is that heroic wish fulfillment pays better because these types of gamers are willing to pay more for their wish fulfillment high.

Its interesting in the way RPGs seem to be supplanting comic books in that role.

Good point.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

I really understand and admire you, even if I disagre completely with you vision of RPG, I had many times used similar arguments about movies, that most of the mainstream one are simple escapism, that they are so totally disassociated of the reality that there is no emotion, no tension, etc and people says that movies are about fun, to I don't take them so seriously and so on.

No d&d 4e will not be more like the game you want, there are many other RPGs that would be better for you, maybe something like GURPS or Ars Magica.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Jack7, a very interesting editorial, indeed!

I just want to add that you are in fact using "pornography" correctly in its original sense: something that seeks to excite some sense or desire in an extreme or unhealthy way.

We most commonly encounter the term in reference to depiction of explicit sex, but it can also be depiction of extreme violence; i.e. the "Faces of Death" series of videos is pornography.

In your case, you see elements of the modern game to cater to the senses and desires of the participants in a pornographic way that ultimately will leave them hollow and unfulfilled.

 

[Imaro]

Hey, Jack7...just wanted to say I get where you're coming from. I don't necessarily see eye to eye with you about all the details, but man do I feel you. I have prefrences that have fallen by the wayside with D&D through the editions, especially any type of minimal nod it used to pay to sword and sorcery. This is my prefered style of play and the more I hear about D&D 4th, the more I feel it is more a mish mash of Final Fantasy and LotR asthetics than anything remotely resembling sword and sorcery. This IMHO is a shame.

In S&S a "monster" is something rare that should be feared, there are no tribes upon tribes of humanoids(Tolkien I'm looking at you.)...monsters are well monsters, with a story or...mythology if you will that may help or hinder the players in defeating them. They are more like Grendel, the Gorgons, or Fenris...singular or rare beings. They might be chaos created spawn who serve elder gods or mutated animals formed by dark sorceries but one thing they are not is commonplace and ho hum.

Magic...yeah it's power in S&S but there are consequences inherent in it's application, decisions of morality and sacrifice that are involved in using a great power that I think are fascinating and rich material for roleplaying. In fact that has always been my biggest fascination with magic in fantasy...the cost(even the Mouser uses sorcery, though rarely).

Magical Items are rare and powerful things, which can bring curses, blessings but usually both to the hero that wields them (Stormbringer and the gauntlet of Corum immediately spring to mind).

In current D&D monsters are mooks that the players slay before breakfast then slay some more after lunch, no mythology, no background, no mystery or unknown factor...just a place holder for experience points. Yeah I know it's up to the DM to do this...but how about a campaign setting and rules that facilitate this? Instead we get rules for playing them, which minimize them to a known factor.

Magic...the biggest dilemma a spellcaster faces is whether or not he has enough slots left to cast what he wants to cast, yet at higher levels he can literally reshape reality(wish spell). You want to balance casters and non-casters...then make them risk important things to do powerful magic. Magic should be an unknown, mysterious, and quite frankly a frightening quality (IMHO, take a note from nWoD's mage game...Paradox aka "there's consequences and risks involved when you start screwing with reality".)

Magic Items should not just be a plus to this or that modifier. Earthdawn had a great system for magic items, where you had to learn the history and perform certain acts(in accordance with the weapons powers and history) to unlock greater powers within it. That IMHO is what magic items should be like. You want to wield the sword Kinslayer's most potent power...guess what buddy, it didn't get that name for nothing. Now, is the power worth what you have to do to get it? Want to unlock the sceptre of Gilash's minor power find out how by researching it, etc.

D&D didn't specifically cater to this style before, but it also didn't seem as opposed to it as it does in it's current incarnation. It's all about the power-ups and what players supposedly find "fun". Not sure exactly what it is but I do feel as if something (though I can't relate in words, exactly what) is being left behind. I guess the majority of players are getting what they want with D&D. For me, I've found that Mongoose's Runequest and it's settings (Conan, Elric, Hawkmoon and Lankhmar) are closer to what I want in my fantasy.

 

[outsider]

You can do whatever you think best Mod, but when you've had people aiming weapons in your direction being called a "troll" on an internet message board is hardly anything I could get worked up into a tin lizzie about. It's no skin off my upper lip and I don't mind at all, not that I'm absolutely sure what it means in this particular context, though I think I have the general concept down okay. Anywho I'd hate to think somebody got banned or canned for calling me a troll, when that's about the least conflabulatory thing I've ever lived through. It's hard to think of something less serious than being called a name on the internet. Still, it's your board and your site. You're town marshal in these here parts and I respect however you think you gotta run the show and the markers you feel you gotta put down. But if it's for my sake it's no hard sweat as far as I'm concerned.

Still, it's your patrol to run. Do what you think best.

Well, I can't argue with a man that says "tin lizzie". Though we were on opposite sides of the battlefield today, I salute you and look forward to all the thought provoking discussions you will no doubt be initiating here in the near future.

 

[Korgoth]

However, Gygax also said on these very pages...
.
.
.
"The major appeal of the FRPG is the fantastic, the assumption of a character role in a world filled with strange creatures, and by dint of effort building through deeds of action and intellect that game persona from a lowly adventurer to a renown figure with power and prestiege in his milieu.

There is little satisfaction in such accomplishment if it isn't earned. The basis for the D&D game, including 3E and 3.5E is not the superheroic, but the heroic.

IMO, the new system hands players on a proverbial silver platter what once had to be earned"
.
.
.

Now the above quote refers more to the acquistion of character power rather than to simulation of the real world with attendant disciplines of history, theology, architecture, and so forth.

But the statement does clarify Gary's stance regarding 3E D&D character power and its acquisition, specifically, a rejection of it. While Gary would likely not care for the OP's style of play, neither does he care 3E style of play.

Lucky me then, for I was not arguing in favor of 3E (in fact, perish the thought!) but merely arguing against the OP using the words of Gygax.

I agree that the last thing D&D should turn into is Exalted, to me the acme of all the combined foolishness of comic books, Sammo Hung movies and anime. But that isn't the issue here.

The OP's challenge was that D&D is going away from edifying treatments of real-world mythology, religion and culture. I contend, via my Gygaxian proof text, that D&D was never about those things in the first place. It is about fantasy and fun, as Gygax himself says. The OP shouldn't mistake the inclusion of certain allusions to Earthly myth and culture which fired the Gygaxian imagination with some attempt to be genuinely edifying or "useful".

How would the OP (please reply, if reading!) assess Expedition to the Barrier Peaks? That's old school D&D. A trove in Tharizdun's temple contains a lightsaber. A demilich is a floating skull that melts people and steals their souls. Gelatinous cubes, man! This is fantasy, pure and simple.

If anything's wrong with the fantasy of "these kids today" it's that it isn't weird enough. It's all rationalistic and standardized and kind of corporate. Templates? No! Laser guns and treestump-bunny-tentacle monsters! Templates indeed.

 

[Shadeydm]

The OP's challenge was that D&D is going away from edifying treatments of real-world treestump-bunny-tentacle monsters!

Beware the bunnyoid on a stump. Words of wisdom if I ever saw them.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The literary antecedents of early D&D are porn, in part. In REH's Conan, beautiful women are forever ending up naked, getting tied up and even tortured. It's not just porn, it's pervy porn.