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Gaming Pornography: Will 4th Edition lead to a more Realistic and Useful Game?
- Thread starter Jack7
- Start date
- Status
Thornir Alekeg
Albatross!
WotC can only hope they are going to route of Gaming Pornography. Pornography is the single most looked at material on the web.
Snide comments aside, I don't want a more realistic and useful game. I want a fantasy game, not a world simulation exercise. That was what drew me to D&D in 1979 and still draws me today.
And as for modern fantasy being "vapid," I would be curious as to what authors you read and what you consider quality fantasy writing. There is a huge amount of fantasy writing out there, much more than there used to be. The result is that there is plenty of poor quality fantasy to be found, but there is plenty of excellent material as well.
Snide comments aside, I don't want a more realistic and useful game. I want a fantasy game, not a world simulation exercise. That was what drew me to D&D in 1979 and still draws me today.
And as for modern fantasy being "vapid," I would be curious as to what authors you read and what you consider quality fantasy writing. There is a huge amount of fantasy writing out there, much more than there used to be. The result is that there is plenty of poor quality fantasy to be found, but there is plenty of excellent material as well.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Korgoth said:Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe.
Win.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Nifft also wins.
Jack7
First Post
Machinery of the Unreal
I'm tempted not to say anything else since I've enjoyed reading many of the comments and points being made, and have no real desire to interfere with where some of you are going with this, or the subject matter(s) you are addressing. And although this discussion has proceeded along many tangential paths I never anticipated, neverertheless it has raised some very interesting issues which I had not considered in quite the way they are being expressed.
But I guess I'll address a few things to keep from being misunderstood, though I reckon that will inevitably happen anyways.
Besides some of the things said were so interesting they gave me a few new ideas.
I got no problem with what you are saying. In my campaign the major party of adventures and players are from the Christian Byzantine Empire with a few Western Europeans and a Russian steppe barbarian thrown in. But there are three other parties who play as well. One party originating from Asia (China and India) and the near East (A Persian and a couple of Muslims), one party from Eastern and Northern Africa, and a final party from a different world which is geogrhaiclaly a near duplicate of our world but is inhabited by entirely different flora and fauna, creatures, and beings (in this world are the equivalent beings that in our world mighty be called elves, dwarves, giants, and so forth, though they do not call themselves by those terms).
These two (ours and the other one) worlds interact with another on occasion with creatures and beings from this "otherworld" bleeding into our real, historical world (it is not really our historical world of course, our world is not infrequently visited by creatures from some parallel world, but within the context of a fantasy game and this situation, in almost every other respect it is our historical world) and on very rare occasion people from our world visiting this other world. But whereas humans are indigenous to our real world, in this other world humans are not indigenous and there is only a small community of a few hundred men and women in that entire world. Otherwise it is inhabited by other species. Magic works in that world (although it is dangerous and has sometimes serious and malignant side-effects) and miracles (thaumaturgy), not magic, work in our world. They (the creatures from the otherworld) are interested in miracles (miracles do not occur there) and some humans who vaguely know about these other creatures and this other world are interested in magic. Part of the tension is some humans want to gain control of and master "magic" (for both noble, and selfish and ignoble reasons) while some of the beings and creatures on the other world have become interested in human religion, God, and the idea of miracles as a replacement for magic. And so they want to harness miracles in the same way they employ magic (for both noble and ignoble reasons). So the idea of other cultures, peoples, nations, religions, and even worlds overlapping and intermixing and competing and cooperating is sort of central to our campaign, and the worlds involved.
But that's not really what I was driving at. I meant un-realistic in the sense of not being related to the real world at all.
I'm not against the fantastic. Sometimes the fantastic plays a central and beneficial role, mentally, psychologically, spiritually, and in other ways to a given pursuit. It can encourage innovation, invention, useful imagination, learning, the mastering of new skills (both imagined and real world) and so forth. But by the same token the imagination can seek to divorce itself form reality and seek to become A (very insubstantial and basically diversionary and useless) substitute reality which does not enhance and en-noble the real world, but merely seeks to replace the real world with a shadowy (and not good for very much other than escapist) illusion which consumes time, money, resources, and energies that could be better spent at more productive pursuits. Now I'm not calling gaming of any kind a necessarily unproductive pursuit, like any pursuit it depends on how it is structured, designed, defined, and employed. I'm saying there are good and productive and beneficial ways to approach anything, and there are basically escapist (not bad in itself, bad when it becomes the obsessive or maybe even only point of an activity) and unproductive ways to do a thing. When a game teeters on the edge of becoming a replacement activity instead of an enjoyable and edifying (in the original sense of the term) activity, not because that is the inherent nature of the game, but through the misguided emphasis being currently pursued, I consider that unrealistic and will eventually lead only to trouble, for both the game and the players. I'm also saying that if a thing can be both enjoyable and useful (as D&D can be) then in the long run it is time better spent, ultimately more enjoyable, and memorable than a mere pursuit of escapism. That things which have a point and a relationship to other, more important things are better than those which do not. That it's the difference between a Campbell's Soup Can reproduced by Andy Warhol ad infinitum in different colors and on different materials, and a unique Last Supper or David produced by Leonardo or Michelangelo, and that eventually most people will see that the Warhol is of far lesser "real-value" for a whole host of reasons.
There is little art in the more recent incarnations of the game, it is more like a cartoon or parody of itself. It has recently become a sort of over-bred, self-absorbed and endlessly replicating, navel-gazing Warhol.
I'd rather see it undergo a real Renaissance than just another Manhattan subway tour.
As to whether this new edition will lead to such a Renaissance I don't know.
Maybe so, maybe not. I hope it will though.
That made me laugh. And you were "steel on target."
I agree. However when you've got to practically rework the entire system because it creates an atmosphere of alienness and disconnection to anything else in your experience (outside of one's imagination that is) then as far as I'm concerned, the system and structure of the game has a real problem.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I'd like to see more of an emphasis on that kinda thing in the game, for the game to have more of a point to it than just building the next ultimate "shapechanging dragon-born illithid-spawned half-tanarii, acid-bleeding ghost-touch" thingy for purposes of pornographic exhibition or titillation. And I know some of you may object to the term but to me and most of my players it is the perfect description, not in a sexual sense of course, but in the sense of over-hyper-sensualization of meaningless concentration upon object/magical/super-powered obsession and fascination of things/objects/powers versus any real purpose to the gaming exercise and the gaming system.
That's exactly what we do. But the modern game system (not to mention the supporting products) makes that less easy, not more easy. So basically we avoid it.
Nah. I like kids. Got a few of my own, and the neighbor kids stop by and play often too.
I was even one once myself.
That was one of my points. The game has become nothing more than itself. No connection to anything other than an imaginary game about an imaginary mythology in an imaginary world(s) that has no value of any kind other than to itself, and which has splintered into dozens of different sub-systems and sub-sets and milieu that bear no resemblance to anything else and which have no value of any kind other than within the sphere of it's own self-absorption. You used to could go into practically any D&D (or related game) game and have basic "markers" or reference points, which everyone knew and understood. It was for lack of a better term a shared culture, which in itself shared many of the same basic reference portions as the general culture. Now I've got no objection at all to expanding the basic culture, or to expanding the basic general culture in which we all live, however that's not what happened. D&D became a separate, splintered, counter-culture (which in itself is not always a bad thing) but in this case it also became a counter-counter-culture and a splintered counter-counter culture of the imagination. in other words it became nothing more than about who could devise the most ridiculously unrealistic and alien and totally divorced from the real world pornography of the mind using the game as both a vehicle and a device for the expression of this particular "machinery of the unreal." The myths of the current game exist only for the game, and that's only one aspect of what I mean, and so they are basically empty. Disconnected from anything that excites any real loyalty or purpose or demand even the myth becomes nothing more than a mere "game mechanism." Another cog in the machinery of the unreal. Religions in D&D demand nothing really, myths do not excite, political systems do not inspire loyalty or sacrifice, historical figures (because they are all imaginary) inspire no emulation, Saints do not move, generals do not really command, nations do not really rise and fall, because there is no real connection to anything. And so what you are left with is a desperate attempt to design something utterly fantastic and yet totally artificial in order to replace natural loyalties and alliances if things in the game even vaguely resembled real life. But the game (as a form) moved away from real life and all of the advantages it could have rendered, and omitted all of the loyalties and determinations it could have inspired. The game developed a religion about nobody and a myth about nothing and a setting in which the characters must recreate for themselves and their party a world in which natural affections, loyalties, histories, politics, and interests are inherently lacking. Who among most gamers could honestly say they would have any interest in any in-game divinity at all if such a divinity did not grant spells or miracles. Where is the divinity or religion that inspires heroes to do good for the sake of being good or to be heroic because that is the natural conviction and demand of that religion and God? Where is the in-game nation for which one would gladly die as a service of patriotism and to fellow citizen? Where are the figures to emulate, the Saints to follow, the quest (other than to recover some magical artifact that will make you more magically powerful than your opponent) of the mind, body, spirit and soul? D&D didn't just evolve into the world by another name, it became a wholly different kind of world devoid of what makes a real world most interesting, noble, important, and worthwhile. The player cannot really become the character because the world he inhabits is a stick form stage set in which all of the props are unreal and he fights and strives and lives for nothing, other than the play itself. By emptying the world of reality you empty the play of the play itself. D&D lost its' naturalness when it moved away from the real world and it did not gain a new nature, it gained a hollow one.
Because that happened it didn't help the game, or expand the market, it merely fractured it endlessly, regurgitating ad infinitum alien system after alien system into smaller and smaller "niche communities" that other niche communities have little or nothing in common with, other than the name of the game. You can go so far in the direction of constantly fishing the imagination for the newest, most bizarre, most outlandish thing possible that you become nothing more than your own imagination. In my opinion the game had reached that state and I suspect that might be one reason the game designers might be attempting to correct such errors in the newer version. I don't know that for sure, and it's just a supposition but in my opinion if the game contrived on it's current trajectory and emphasis then it will practically assure it's own self-absorption as a game of ever diminishing returns. Like an ouroboros. It would fracture into so many separate things it could not be one thing at all. And over time each small thing would eat itself out of boredom.
Now it's just a supposition that current game designers wish to staunch the hemorrhaging of blood flowing out of so many separate wounds, they may not have any intention at all of "re-unification of the game," and indeed they may not even consciously realize this to be a problem. But I see this as not only being a general gaming problem, but also a marketing one. If you have to put out a module for ten separate milieus and you have already divided your market into ten separate niche subcultures, then the chance of banking any kind of real (instead of marginal) profit off of anything you produce is small.
If however there is a basic reference point, things about your game which are common to all, then things are easily adapted to any situation, product, idea, community, and system. There is a commonality and coherence to what you do, no matter if that is a business, mythological, cultural, gaming, historical, or even linguistic matter. D&D has become a Tower of Babylon, in which so many different languages and competing intentions reign, that nothing and no-one reigns, and the advantages are small in every sense. I'm kinda hoping the game designers and the new edition will understand that you're not going anywhere if everybody is trying to go everywhere and in every direction all at once. But I don't know that, one way or another, and so we'll see.
I'm with you. But you can't educate (not that I'm saying you're saying this) about just the imagination of an imaginary world. There has to be some kinda substance to the substance.
I hope not. At least not like in the modern gangsta rap sense. I think that's the problem now, both in the general pornographic sense and in the business model sense. I'd like to see it become more like art music. Less about self-gratification and more as an exercise in something worthwhile.
You paraphrase very well.
To be Nebulous you sure make a solid point. In addition the dingleberries comment made me laugh.
That's one of the best observations thus far in my opinion.
It's funny you should mention it in that way. Because as I described above the world in which we play is really our historical world during the time of the Byzantine empire, and although the parties face monsters and magic, it all comes from outside, it is "otherworldly and rare" yet because it is rare it is also dangerous and unpredictable. That is the players don't really "know the rules" because when they encounter monsters and magic it is "otherworldly" and so they can never really be wholly prepared. the players don't know "the rules" by which it will operate and therefore it is a big departure from the normal. And that makes it all the more exciting to them. Because they cannot control it. they do not know the rule about every spell or magical device or creature or being they encounter . And so there is far more "adventure" because like in early D&D they are more playing in the dark, unsure of what any encounter will bring, etc. in later editions of the game the rules function to make players virtual and de facto "min-DMs" who often run the game as surrogate DMs, insisting this rule or that rule because they basically know as much, if not more, about everything they encounter and how everything within that setting works, as the DM himself. The game used to be about what the DM knew, what the players had to figure out, and how those two things worked themselves out by the interplay. The DM used to be a guide into the wondrous and unknown, now he is merely a referee into the mundane. A mundane filled with magic, not technology, but as mundane to the average character as a trip to the grocery store is to the average player.
There is no room for surprise, for shock, for danger, for grit, for tension, for horror, for the bizarre, or even the magical. Magic is merely a type of ammunition, not a warping of reality. There is simply one set of super-powered magical doo-dads and doo-detts against another set of super powered NPCs and monsters, and may the most powerful win. Therefore it all comes down to a mechanical exercise in tactics and strategy, (even the magic part) rather than a fluid, adaptational, improvisational exercise in the tactics and strategy of success and survival and in triumph. In my campaign players use nearly every piece of their equipment, nearly every skill and capability, nearly every talent often and in a multitude of innovative ways. They do not have a +7 Sword of Absolute Zero for use against the unlikely encounter with the Astral Plane Hell-Spawned Immortal Demon Lich of Black Volcano Fire. Instead they have a sword. Instead they have a spear, and shield, and armor, and equipment, and their own wits and capabilities and experience and skill, and they have each other.
Most of the time they fight other men, men from other nations, other city-states, other religions, other armies, other cultures, etc. Or they make alliances with such other men, either temporary or long-term. But when they do encounter monsters and demons and creatures from elsewhere and the bizarre and unknown then they don't need the Amulet of Ultimate Repulsion made from the only one in existence single tear drop of the cross bred dragon kindred thundersnake and the ghoul bodied baslihound of Abaraskadoomland. They don't need to rely upon gadgetry and magic and rare artifacts to extract them from every situation, they do that by self-sacrifice, hard work, reliance upon each other, bravery, experimentation, loyalty, and by adapting and overcoming. To me that's adventuring and enjoyment and usefulness in a game, and the magic that fixes every problem ain't. Cause in real life you don't have the magic that fixes every problem, you got yourself, your experience, your buddies, your values, and your wits.
I saw nothing...nothing.
Ain't it the truth? Ain't it the living truth...
That's a real answer. And thanks.
As to the fellow who asks me what fantasy I read. I read mostly non-fiction but I do or have enjoyed Jonathan Strange, Harry Potter, Artemis Fowl, and some other more modern works. Some Gaiman. I like many of the pre-Tolkien classical fantasy and myth writers, as well as Tolkien, Lewis, Eddison, as well as works like Beowulf, the Icelandic Sagas, The Eddas, the Aeneid, the Odyssey, some Chinese and Japanese works. That kinda thing. Although not strictly fantasy as some of this other stuff I mentioned, I like Noh plays a lot. Myth, and so forth. I like Howard as well.
I don't care for most modern pulp fantasy.
You can do whatever you think best Mod, but when you've had people aiming weapons in your direction being called a "troll" on an internet message board is hardly anything I could get worked up into a tin lizzie about. It's no skin off my upper lip and I don't mind at all, not that I'm absolutely sure what it means in this particular context, though I think I have the general concept down okay. Anywho I'd hate to think somebody got banned or canned for calling me a troll, when that's about the least conflabulatory thing I've ever lived through. It's hard to think of something less serious than being called a name on the internet. Still, it's your board and your site. You're town marshal in these here parts and I respect however you think you gotta run the show and the markers you feel you gotta put down. But if it's for my sake it's no hard sweat as far as I'm concerned.
Still, it's your patrol to run. Do what you think best.
Well, I think I'm gonna go get some later work done and then watch Eureka. Enjoy yourselves people and I'll read what ya think and yak at ya later.
I'm tempted not to say anything else since I've enjoyed reading many of the comments and points being made, and have no real desire to interfere with where some of you are going with this, or the subject matter(s) you are addressing. And although this discussion has proceeded along many tangential paths I never anticipated, neverertheless it has raised some very interesting issues which I had not considered in quite the way they are being expressed.
But I guess I'll address a few things to keep from being misunderstood, though I reckon that will inevitably happen anyways.
Besides some of the things said were so interesting they gave me a few new ideas.
I got no problem with what you are saying. In my campaign the major party of adventures and players are from the Christian Byzantine Empire with a few Western Europeans and a Russian steppe barbarian thrown in. But there are three other parties who play as well. One party originating from Asia (China and India) and the near East (A Persian and a couple of Muslims), one party from Eastern and Northern Africa, and a final party from a different world which is geogrhaiclaly a near duplicate of our world but is inhabited by entirely different flora and fauna, creatures, and beings (in this world are the equivalent beings that in our world mighty be called elves, dwarves, giants, and so forth, though they do not call themselves by those terms).
These two (ours and the other one) worlds interact with another on occasion with creatures and beings from this "otherworld" bleeding into our real, historical world (it is not really our historical world of course, our world is not infrequently visited by creatures from some parallel world, but within the context of a fantasy game and this situation, in almost every other respect it is our historical world) and on very rare occasion people from our world visiting this other world. But whereas humans are indigenous to our real world, in this other world humans are not indigenous and there is only a small community of a few hundred men and women in that entire world. Otherwise it is inhabited by other species. Magic works in that world (although it is dangerous and has sometimes serious and malignant side-effects) and miracles (thaumaturgy), not magic, work in our world. They (the creatures from the otherworld) are interested in miracles (miracles do not occur there) and some humans who vaguely know about these other creatures and this other world are interested in magic. Part of the tension is some humans want to gain control of and master "magic" (for both noble, and selfish and ignoble reasons) while some of the beings and creatures on the other world have become interested in human religion, God, and the idea of miracles as a replacement for magic. And so they want to harness miracles in the same way they employ magic (for both noble and ignoble reasons). So the idea of other cultures, peoples, nations, religions, and even worlds overlapping and intermixing and competing and cooperating is sort of central to our campaign, and the worlds involved.
But that's not really what I was driving at. I meant un-realistic in the sense of not being related to the real world at all.
I'm not against the fantastic. Sometimes the fantastic plays a central and beneficial role, mentally, psychologically, spiritually, and in other ways to a given pursuit. It can encourage innovation, invention, useful imagination, learning, the mastering of new skills (both imagined and real world) and so forth. But by the same token the imagination can seek to divorce itself form reality and seek to become A (very insubstantial and basically diversionary and useless) substitute reality which does not enhance and en-noble the real world, but merely seeks to replace the real world with a shadowy (and not good for very much other than escapist) illusion which consumes time, money, resources, and energies that could be better spent at more productive pursuits. Now I'm not calling gaming of any kind a necessarily unproductive pursuit, like any pursuit it depends on how it is structured, designed, defined, and employed. I'm saying there are good and productive and beneficial ways to approach anything, and there are basically escapist (not bad in itself, bad when it becomes the obsessive or maybe even only point of an activity) and unproductive ways to do a thing. When a game teeters on the edge of becoming a replacement activity instead of an enjoyable and edifying (in the original sense of the term) activity, not because that is the inherent nature of the game, but through the misguided emphasis being currently pursued, I consider that unrealistic and will eventually lead only to trouble, for both the game and the players. I'm also saying that if a thing can be both enjoyable and useful (as D&D can be) then in the long run it is time better spent, ultimately more enjoyable, and memorable than a mere pursuit of escapism. That things which have a point and a relationship to other, more important things are better than those which do not. That it's the difference between a Campbell's Soup Can reproduced by Andy Warhol ad infinitum in different colors and on different materials, and a unique Last Supper or David produced by Leonardo or Michelangelo, and that eventually most people will see that the Warhol is of far lesser "real-value" for a whole host of reasons.
There is little art in the more recent incarnations of the game, it is more like a cartoon or parody of itself. It has recently become a sort of over-bred, self-absorbed and endlessly replicating, navel-gazing Warhol.
I'd rather see it undergo a real Renaissance than just another Manhattan subway tour.
As to whether this new edition will lead to such a Renaissance I don't know.
Maybe so, maybe not. I hope it will though.
That made me laugh. And you were "steel on target."
I agree. However when you've got to practically rework the entire system because it creates an atmosphere of alienness and disconnection to anything else in your experience (outside of one's imagination that is) then as far as I'm concerned, the system and structure of the game has a real problem.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I'd like to see more of an emphasis on that kinda thing in the game, for the game to have more of a point to it than just building the next ultimate "shapechanging dragon-born illithid-spawned half-tanarii, acid-bleeding ghost-touch" thingy for purposes of pornographic exhibition or titillation. And I know some of you may object to the term but to me and most of my players it is the perfect description, not in a sexual sense of course, but in the sense of over-hyper-sensualization of meaningless concentration upon object/magical/super-powered obsession and fascination of things/objects/powers versus any real purpose to the gaming exercise and the gaming system.
That's exactly what we do. But the modern game system (not to mention the supporting products) makes that less easy, not more easy. So basically we avoid it.
Nah. I like kids. Got a few of my own, and the neighbor kids stop by and play often too.
I was even one once myself.
That was one of my points. The game has become nothing more than itself. No connection to anything other than an imaginary game about an imaginary mythology in an imaginary world(s) that has no value of any kind other than to itself, and which has splintered into dozens of different sub-systems and sub-sets and milieu that bear no resemblance to anything else and which have no value of any kind other than within the sphere of it's own self-absorption. You used to could go into practically any D&D (or related game) game and have basic "markers" or reference points, which everyone knew and understood. It was for lack of a better term a shared culture, which in itself shared many of the same basic reference portions as the general culture. Now I've got no objection at all to expanding the basic culture, or to expanding the basic general culture in which we all live, however that's not what happened. D&D became a separate, splintered, counter-culture (which in itself is not always a bad thing) but in this case it also became a counter-counter-culture and a splintered counter-counter culture of the imagination. in other words it became nothing more than about who could devise the most ridiculously unrealistic and alien and totally divorced from the real world pornography of the mind using the game as both a vehicle and a device for the expression of this particular "machinery of the unreal." The myths of the current game exist only for the game, and that's only one aspect of what I mean, and so they are basically empty. Disconnected from anything that excites any real loyalty or purpose or demand even the myth becomes nothing more than a mere "game mechanism." Another cog in the machinery of the unreal. Religions in D&D demand nothing really, myths do not excite, political systems do not inspire loyalty or sacrifice, historical figures (because they are all imaginary) inspire no emulation, Saints do not move, generals do not really command, nations do not really rise and fall, because there is no real connection to anything. And so what you are left with is a desperate attempt to design something utterly fantastic and yet totally artificial in order to replace natural loyalties and alliances if things in the game even vaguely resembled real life. But the game (as a form) moved away from real life and all of the advantages it could have rendered, and omitted all of the loyalties and determinations it could have inspired. The game developed a religion about nobody and a myth about nothing and a setting in which the characters must recreate for themselves and their party a world in which natural affections, loyalties, histories, politics, and interests are inherently lacking. Who among most gamers could honestly say they would have any interest in any in-game divinity at all if such a divinity did not grant spells or miracles. Where is the divinity or religion that inspires heroes to do good for the sake of being good or to be heroic because that is the natural conviction and demand of that religion and God? Where is the in-game nation for which one would gladly die as a service of patriotism and to fellow citizen? Where are the figures to emulate, the Saints to follow, the quest (other than to recover some magical artifact that will make you more magically powerful than your opponent) of the mind, body, spirit and soul? D&D didn't just evolve into the world by another name, it became a wholly different kind of world devoid of what makes a real world most interesting, noble, important, and worthwhile. The player cannot really become the character because the world he inhabits is a stick form stage set in which all of the props are unreal and he fights and strives and lives for nothing, other than the play itself. By emptying the world of reality you empty the play of the play itself. D&D lost its' naturalness when it moved away from the real world and it did not gain a new nature, it gained a hollow one.
Because that happened it didn't help the game, or expand the market, it merely fractured it endlessly, regurgitating ad infinitum alien system after alien system into smaller and smaller "niche communities" that other niche communities have little or nothing in common with, other than the name of the game. You can go so far in the direction of constantly fishing the imagination for the newest, most bizarre, most outlandish thing possible that you become nothing more than your own imagination. In my opinion the game had reached that state and I suspect that might be one reason the game designers might be attempting to correct such errors in the newer version. I don't know that for sure, and it's just a supposition but in my opinion if the game contrived on it's current trajectory and emphasis then it will practically assure it's own self-absorption as a game of ever diminishing returns. Like an ouroboros. It would fracture into so many separate things it could not be one thing at all. And over time each small thing would eat itself out of boredom.
Now it's just a supposition that current game designers wish to staunch the hemorrhaging of blood flowing out of so many separate wounds, they may not have any intention at all of "re-unification of the game," and indeed they may not even consciously realize this to be a problem. But I see this as not only being a general gaming problem, but also a marketing one. If you have to put out a module for ten separate milieus and you have already divided your market into ten separate niche subcultures, then the chance of banking any kind of real (instead of marginal) profit off of anything you produce is small.
If however there is a basic reference point, things about your game which are common to all, then things are easily adapted to any situation, product, idea, community, and system. There is a commonality and coherence to what you do, no matter if that is a business, mythological, cultural, gaming, historical, or even linguistic matter. D&D has become a Tower of Babylon, in which so many different languages and competing intentions reign, that nothing and no-one reigns, and the advantages are small in every sense. I'm kinda hoping the game designers and the new edition will understand that you're not going anywhere if everybody is trying to go everywhere and in every direction all at once. But I don't know that, one way or another, and so we'll see.
I'm with you. But you can't educate (not that I'm saying you're saying this) about just the imagination of an imaginary world. There has to be some kinda substance to the substance.
I hope not. At least not like in the modern gangsta rap sense. I think that's the problem now, both in the general pornographic sense and in the business model sense. I'd like to see it become more like art music. Less about self-gratification and more as an exercise in something worthwhile.
You paraphrase very well.
To be Nebulous you sure make a solid point. In addition the dingleberries comment made me laugh.
That's one of the best observations thus far in my opinion.
It's funny you should mention it in that way. Because as I described above the world in which we play is really our historical world during the time of the Byzantine empire, and although the parties face monsters and magic, it all comes from outside, it is "otherworldly and rare" yet because it is rare it is also dangerous and unpredictable. That is the players don't really "know the rules" because when they encounter monsters and magic it is "otherworldly" and so they can never really be wholly prepared. the players don't know "the rules" by which it will operate and therefore it is a big departure from the normal. And that makes it all the more exciting to them. Because they cannot control it. they do not know the rule about every spell or magical device or creature or being they encounter . And so there is far more "adventure" because like in early D&D they are more playing in the dark, unsure of what any encounter will bring, etc. in later editions of the game the rules function to make players virtual and de facto "min-DMs" who often run the game as surrogate DMs, insisting this rule or that rule because they basically know as much, if not more, about everything they encounter and how everything within that setting works, as the DM himself. The game used to be about what the DM knew, what the players had to figure out, and how those two things worked themselves out by the interplay. The DM used to be a guide into the wondrous and unknown, now he is merely a referee into the mundane. A mundane filled with magic, not technology, but as mundane to the average character as a trip to the grocery store is to the average player.
There is no room for surprise, for shock, for danger, for grit, for tension, for horror, for the bizarre, or even the magical. Magic is merely a type of ammunition, not a warping of reality. There is simply one set of super-powered magical doo-dads and doo-detts against another set of super powered NPCs and monsters, and may the most powerful win. Therefore it all comes down to a mechanical exercise in tactics and strategy, (even the magic part) rather than a fluid, adaptational, improvisational exercise in the tactics and strategy of success and survival and in triumph. In my campaign players use nearly every piece of their equipment, nearly every skill and capability, nearly every talent often and in a multitude of innovative ways. They do not have a +7 Sword of Absolute Zero for use against the unlikely encounter with the Astral Plane Hell-Spawned Immortal Demon Lich of Black Volcano Fire. Instead they have a sword. Instead they have a spear, and shield, and armor, and equipment, and their own wits and capabilities and experience and skill, and they have each other.
Most of the time they fight other men, men from other nations, other city-states, other religions, other armies, other cultures, etc. Or they make alliances with such other men, either temporary or long-term. But when they do encounter monsters and demons and creatures from elsewhere and the bizarre and unknown then they don't need the Amulet of Ultimate Repulsion made from the only one in existence single tear drop of the cross bred dragon kindred thundersnake and the ghoul bodied baslihound of Abaraskadoomland. They don't need to rely upon gadgetry and magic and rare artifacts to extract them from every situation, they do that by self-sacrifice, hard work, reliance upon each other, bravery, experimentation, loyalty, and by adapting and overcoming. To me that's adventuring and enjoyment and usefulness in a game, and the magic that fixes every problem ain't. Cause in real life you don't have the magic that fixes every problem, you got yourself, your experience, your buddies, your values, and your wits.
I saw nothing...nothing.
Ain't it the truth? Ain't it the living truth...
That's a real answer. And thanks.
As to the fellow who asks me what fantasy I read. I read mostly non-fiction but I do or have enjoyed Jonathan Strange, Harry Potter, Artemis Fowl, and some other more modern works. Some Gaiman. I like many of the pre-Tolkien classical fantasy and myth writers, as well as Tolkien, Lewis, Eddison, as well as works like Beowulf, the Icelandic Sagas, The Eddas, the Aeneid, the Odyssey, some Chinese and Japanese works. That kinda thing. Although not strictly fantasy as some of this other stuff I mentioned, I like Noh plays a lot. Myth, and so forth. I like Howard as well.
I don't care for most modern pulp fantasy.
You can do whatever you think best Mod, but when you've had people aiming weapons in your direction being called a "troll" on an internet message board is hardly anything I could get worked up into a tin lizzie about. It's no skin off my upper lip and I don't mind at all, not that I'm absolutely sure what it means in this particular context, though I think I have the general concept down okay. Anywho I'd hate to think somebody got banned or canned for calling me a troll, when that's about the least conflabulatory thing I've ever lived through. It's hard to think of something less serious than being called a name on the internet. Still, it's your board and your site. You're town marshal in these here parts and I respect however you think you gotta run the show and the markers you feel you gotta put down. But if it's for my sake it's no hard sweat as far as I'm concerned.
Still, it's your patrol to run. Do what you think best.
Well, I think I'm gonna go get some later work done and then watch Eureka. Enjoy yourselves people and I'll read what ya think and yak at ya later.
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Numion
First Post
d00d, you wrote "pornography" like 7 times in that long-ass ramble
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I mean, damn. There's no pr0n in any edition of D&D that I've seen, but your argumentative style is suspect anyway, since it requires redefining so many commonly understood words. Yes, your definition for porn isn't what it commonly is, realism includes every bit of unrealistic fantasy you like and excludes other types of fantasy.
I'd say you lost the argument right there.
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I mean, damn. There's no pr0n in any edition of D&D that I've seen, but your argumentative style is suspect anyway, since it requires redefining so many commonly understood words. Yes, your definition for porn isn't what it commonly is, realism includes every bit of unrealistic fantasy you like and excludes other types of fantasy.
I'd say you lost the argument right there.
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