Gandalf - Patient Zero of Bad DMPC Epidemic?

[RangerWickett]

Hurray for DM of the Rings.

 

[pawsplay]

Um, Gandalf is totally a PC.

 

[pawsplay]

no, not really. It was booooooriiiiiing...

Anyway, back to big G. I'd be really furious if the Balrog scene played out in a game I was playing. It would've been a TPK, I'm not backing out of a fight just because a DMPC says so.

So knock yourself out. Take on that Balrog. I, on the other hand, would be grateful the DM had devised a challenge that took Gandalf out of action for a while, allowing the PCs to shine on their own. It also showed Gandalf to be powerful. And I think it really brought home the idea that Balrogs are very, very powerful.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Um, Gandalf is totally a PC.

PCs are generally about the same level and about the same power level. If Gandalf is a PC, something screwy is still going on.

 

[pawsplay]

PCs are generally about the same level and about the same power level. If Gandalf is a PC, something screwy is still going on.

First of all, that's only true in most games. In some games, like Marvel Super-Heroes, wildly different power levels are not only acceptable but likely.

Second of all, he's not more powerful in all game systems. In some game systems, Frodo might have a trait like, "Carries the burden of the ring" that he uses to survive nearly anything. In something like Maelstrom, Gandalf would actually have less power, since he seems to burn his traits fairly often for greater successes. Capes is another game where Gandalf is not necessarily more powerful.

I see no problem with Gandalf as a PC, especially as he possesses a number of limiting traits that effectively prevent him from replacing the other PCs. He cannot bear the ring; he is not the destined King of Gondor; he cannot see to the horizon and kill an orc with an arrow at that range; he cannot pass as an unremarkable halfling. In short, niche protection has been preserved.

 

[RangerWickett]

Actually, um, Gandalf is a Sorcerer 6, who took a lot of combat feats instead of wizard feats. Aside from having a high Bluff score to make his buddies buy that ridiculous tale of 'falling for miles, battling for days, dying, then coming back with a new wardrobe,' tell me one thing he did that required being able to cast 3rd level spells.

• Aragorn is a Ranger 1/Paladin 5 who doesn't use his horse most of the time because the rest of the party isn't mounted.
• Legolas is a Scout 4/Ranger 2 working toward Dervish.
• Gimli is a Fighter 6.
• Frodo is a Rogue 6 with a 16 Charisma and a reputation for fairness and honesty, who took the Leadership feat and got Sam as a cohort and a few 1st level rogues as followers. Merry and Pippin came with him on the adventure, while he left some hobbit women behind to guard the Shire.

Gandalf:

• Cast minor image at the Hobbit party.
• Cast disguise self to look bigger so he could intimidate Bilbo, or maybe cause fear if he was trying to actually run him off so he could steal the ring.
• Tried to dispel Saruman's weird avalanche spell.
• Cast light in the mines.
• Cast shield and shatter when fighting the balrog. He might also have used resist energy (fire). Admittedly the shatter was a very clever trick, but it's obvious the GM was throwing the party a bone by not having the balor use any of its spell-like abilities. All the party had to do was outrun it, trick it into stepping onto the bridge to attack him, and then cast shatter on the bridge.

He told the rest of the party a story about his epic spell duel with Saruman, but that happened in flashback, and Gandalf is an unreliable narrator. It was more likely Saruman just had some orcs jump Gandalf.

Admittedly, when he came back he apparently got some cleric or druid spells, like heat metal, and he dispelled Saruman's weird dominate spell. Maybe he was actually leveled enough to cast dispel magic by that point. Against the flying Nazgul Gandalf cast searing light, and since they're wraiths, that hurt them a lot. And, um . . . that's it.

So his spells are:

1st - Cause Fear or Disguise Self, Minor Image, Mount, Shield
2nd - Resist Energy, Shatter
3rd - Dispel Magic

Then he retrained as a cleric with the sun domain.

 

[Numion]

So knock yourself out. Take on that Balrog.

Nah, I would run away and save my PC. Unless there was a glory-hogging DMPC around who wanted me to run away - in which case I'd have no other option than to get into the fight and uphold the PCs honor until bitter TPK.

Just to piss in the DMs cereals

I, on the other hand, would be grateful the DM had devised a challenge that took Gandalf out of action for a while, allowing the PCs to shine on their own. It also showed Gandalf to be powerful.

See that's what the DM wants you to feel; like he's doing some big service by letting you talk to Galadriel and bash a couple of orc heads in, while his Gandalf is killing a Balrog, getting new wheels (Shadowfax) and being the real reason for the march of the ents.

Just like when in the hobbit when the 'PCs' were in elf prison, big G was taking out the trash in Dol Guldur, one of the few good dungeon romps in the middle earth.

Player: "So when can we tackle that megadungeon you've been working on, Dol Guldur, when is it ready?"
DM: "I got it ready two weeks ago - but don't bother going there, my DMPC Gandalf cleared it singlehandedly last sunday! Don't worry, you would've just been in his way .. and no he's not going to talk you about it."
Player: "?!?"

And I think it really brought home the idea that Balrogs are very, very powerful.

Powerful. And EXTINCT since the hobbitlover killed the friggin last one.

 

[Fifth Element]

Actually, um, Gandalf is a Sorcerer 6, <snip>

Hoo boy, here it comes again. We haven't had a good "what level is Gandalf" thread in what, two, maybe three weeks?

Besides, I thought that he established to be a 5th-level wizard in an old Dragon magazine.

 

[Numion]

Actually, um, Gandalf is a Sorcerer 6, who took a lot of combat feats instead of wizard feats. Aside from having a high Bluff score to make his buddies buy that ridiculous tale of 'falling for miles, battling for days, dying, then coming back with a new wardrobe,' tell me one thing he did that required being able to cast 3rd level spells.

The Balrog fight is canon baby, no wai Gandalf is 6th level

 

[mmadsen]

Gandalf:

• [...]
• Cast light in the mines.
• Cast shield and shatter when fighting the balrog. He might also have used resist energy (fire). Admittedly the shatter was a very clever trick, but it's obvious the GM was throwing the party a bone by not having the balor use any of its spell-like abilities. All the party had to do was outrun it, trick it into stepping onto the bridge to attack him, and then cast shatter on the bridge.

As I recall, he casts hold portal, but whatever's on the other side (the Balrog) is too powerful for his magic to resist. At that point he tells the fellowship that he's drained, and they'll have to do without his magical light for a while. (Which isn't very Vancian...)