Eric Finley
First Post
I've been looking around to see if I'm repeating something that's been brought up before, but I can't find it... so if I just missed it, then a link to the previous thread would be appreciated.
The short and skinny: The start-of-turn and end-of-turn abuses they carefully eliminated from "Delay Turn" are still essentially present in a properly timed "Ready Action." Thus infinite stunlock, etc., all exist as possibilities due to application of this default action. Worse yet (IMO) is the fact that this may bite even well-intentioned players, because you don't necessarily need to be deliberately using such exploits to trigger the effect - you can hit it by accident.
Here's the scenario. We have PCs A through E, monsters 1 through 5. The initial initiative order is interleaved: A, 1, B, 2, C, 3, D, 4, E, 5.
E is our stun-wizard. He nails 4 with a stun which lasts until the end of his (E's) next turn. Now (deliberately abusing the exploit here) he spends an action point to ready an action for "as soon as monster 4 misses an action due to being stunned" or something equivalent. (No free actions are allowed during the actual "end of 4's turn," but this is easily circumvented by putting it within the meat of 4's turn somewhere. Monster 4 can't take actions due to being stunned, but (a) other people can take free actions to trigger the readied action during 4's turn, and (b) stunned is not necessarily the only relevant condition here - make it blinded and he can name "4 finishes all the actions he's taking on his turn.")
For the zeroth-order exploit, it doesn't actually matter what the readied action is. He readies a free action of laughing in 4's face.
E's current turn ends normally. Everything's normal (monster 4 is stunned so everybody beats on him) until we get to 4's turn. Monster 4 is stunned and does nothing, and this (or equivalent, see above) triggers the readied action. E resolves the action ("Bwa ha ha!") and then, per the PHB p.291, moves his position in the initiative order to immediately before the triggering creature's turn - in this case that's 4. So the initiative order is now: A, 1, B, 2, C, 3, D, E, 4, 5. The end of 4's turn occurs, monster 5 acts normally.
Then A, B, C and D all get another action against 4 while it's stunned. Uh-oh. This is where we're screwed. The end of E's turn has taken much longer to come 'round than it should.
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The next order of the exploit is to get meta. What action shall we ready - we can ready any action (PHB 291 again)? Let's ready this one: Ready an Action. The same RAW requires that we get really specific about exactly what we're readying, so we state it explicitly: "I spend an Action point to take an action. Using that action I do Ready Action, readying 'Ready Action: laugh in 4's face as soon as D takes his last action on his next turn.' as soon as 4 loses its actions due to being stunned."
So. Once around, A through D get to beat on 4, 4 is stunned on his own turn, E's readied action triggers and instead of going after 4, now he's going before him, and has a readied action in the pile. Another time around and A through D get to beat on 4 some more. During D's turn, E takes the readied action and laughs in 4's face; instead of being next after D, E's place in the initiative order is bumped to just before D's. Monster 4 is still stunned... boy does he wish E would just actually take a turn, already. A through C get to beat on monster #4 some more, assuming at this point that he's not simply dead. Then E actually takes a turn, during which he undoubtedly nails 4 with something nasty (like another end-of-next-turn stun if he's got one!). But let's be nice and say E misses this time. D takes his turn (and gets his own third round of beating on 4, though now 4's no longer stunned). Then 4 gets to go, assuming it's not a thin red paste by now.
But of course this was only one level of meta. E could as easily, and quite legitimately, have said (probably with the aid of a diagram):
And of course no actual reason to stop there if you're willing to be very careful about the construction ("when 4 loses all his actions due to being stunned for the 9th time") on the further-in loops.
Now, there are technically ways around this if the DM is canny... when your next loop is dependent on 3's last action, 3 delays until after E's turn. So there. But you can work around that by simply tightening up the loop and using only friendly turns as triggers... and, regardless, now you've not only looped poor monster 4 a couple of times already, but you've also delayed 3 by several PCs' turns so that you can now kill him before he acts next. And so forth.
(And yes, I do realize that part of the Ready Action text says: "It takes place after your enemy completes the action that triggers it." But this is far from clear and would, for example, invalidate the otherwise perfectly reasonable tactic which I'll discuss below. And, even if enforced, wouldn't fix the hole - it would just make it a game of duelling timing-exploits between player and DM.)
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Worst yet, in my opinion, isn't the room for deliberate abuse. I mean, really, you come to me as a DM with that stuff and you, your exploit, and your PC are out of my game... unless I really, really like you, in which case I'll merely say "No."
But I can do the zeroth-order one by accident, too! In fact this is what prompted my realization of the loop. Say I'm playing a warlock, with a cleric in the party, and an initiative order of Rogue-Cleric-Monster-Me. I've got a daily which targets AC (Curse of the Bloody Fangs) and want all the bonuses I can get ASAP, so I start out with "Okay. Frigid Darkness to give us all CA and yoink his AC down a bunch, and then action point to nail him with the Fangs." My cleric buddy says, "Hey, hang on - I go before Monster, why don't you get that ready for after I try to nail him with Lance of Faith, and if it hits I'll pass you that targeting bonus as well." Excellent suggestion, sound tactics, no exploits intended whatsoever.
What happens? Frigid Darkness gives us all CA and drops Monster's AC by, say, three, until the end of my next turn. Rogue cackles gleefully and schwacks it hard, Monster gets its turn (since this isn't a stunlock scenario), then Cleric does, hits with Lance of Faith (or doesn't), and I fire my Curse off at the monster. This sets my initiative to right in front of Cleric, and after Rogue. Which means that both Monster and Rogue end up getting a second turn each, during this "until the end of your next turn" duration effect. Rogue's a Brutal Scoundrel with Backstabber; that's a world of bonus hurt, at this level.
Level that up, and it's just about a free Orb of Imposition (second form) every time, for any class.
What's more, if I was taking ongoing damage, not only am I avoiding the end of my turn, but also the start of it... so Rogue gets one extra turn to try and end the encounter before the ongoing damage takes me out. Knowing that this is possible, and seeing myself one round from unconscious, my motivations as an honest player are rather gimped. Do I have to avoid Cleric's perfectly sound tactical suggestion on the grounds that it'll also trigger a rules exploit which would keep me alive and give Rogue a bonus round of CA? If yes, internally where do I set my "this is a sound tactical reason, I'm not just using the exploit" meter - can I justify it if Cleric's bonus is just going to take me from hitting on a 3 to hitting on a 2?
Yuck.
Needs fix.
=======================
My thought is to expand on that so-innocuous sentence, "After you resolve your readied action, move your place in the initiative order to directly before the creature or the event that triggered your readied action." Piggyback it off of the very careful way in which they've handled Delay Turn.
Try this: "After you resolve your readied action, move your place in the initiative order to directly before the creature or the event that triggered your readied action. Technically, you delay your next turn (see page 288) until just before the creature or event which triggered your readied action. Do this even if circumstances (such as being dazed or unable to take actions) would normally prohibit you from delaying your turn."
I still think both Delay and Ready should permit you to sustain a power - it doesn't really make sense to me that your wall of fire should collapse just because you chose to interact tactically with the rest of the party like this. I'm just not certain how to permit this without opening things up to exploits similar to the Ready Action loop I've just gone to great lengths to patch up. Hmph.
===================
Any comments?
The short and skinny: The start-of-turn and end-of-turn abuses they carefully eliminated from "Delay Turn" are still essentially present in a properly timed "Ready Action." Thus infinite stunlock, etc., all exist as possibilities due to application of this default action. Worse yet (IMO) is the fact that this may bite even well-intentioned players, because you don't necessarily need to be deliberately using such exploits to trigger the effect - you can hit it by accident.
Here's the scenario. We have PCs A through E, monsters 1 through 5. The initial initiative order is interleaved: A, 1, B, 2, C, 3, D, 4, E, 5.
E is our stun-wizard. He nails 4 with a stun which lasts until the end of his (E's) next turn. Now (deliberately abusing the exploit here) he spends an action point to ready an action for "as soon as monster 4 misses an action due to being stunned" or something equivalent. (No free actions are allowed during the actual "end of 4's turn," but this is easily circumvented by putting it within the meat of 4's turn somewhere. Monster 4 can't take actions due to being stunned, but (a) other people can take free actions to trigger the readied action during 4's turn, and (b) stunned is not necessarily the only relevant condition here - make it blinded and he can name "4 finishes all the actions he's taking on his turn.")
For the zeroth-order exploit, it doesn't actually matter what the readied action is. He readies a free action of laughing in 4's face.
E's current turn ends normally. Everything's normal (monster 4 is stunned so everybody beats on him) until we get to 4's turn. Monster 4 is stunned and does nothing, and this (or equivalent, see above) triggers the readied action. E resolves the action ("Bwa ha ha!") and then, per the PHB p.291, moves his position in the initiative order to immediately before the triggering creature's turn - in this case that's 4. So the initiative order is now: A, 1, B, 2, C, 3, D, E, 4, 5. The end of 4's turn occurs, monster 5 acts normally.
Then A, B, C and D all get another action against 4 while it's stunned. Uh-oh. This is where we're screwed. The end of E's turn has taken much longer to come 'round than it should.
===================
The next order of the exploit is to get meta. What action shall we ready - we can ready any action (PHB 291 again)? Let's ready this one: Ready an Action. The same RAW requires that we get really specific about exactly what we're readying, so we state it explicitly: "I spend an Action point to take an action. Using that action I do Ready Action, readying 'Ready Action: laugh in 4's face as soon as D takes his last action on his next turn.' as soon as 4 loses its actions due to being stunned."
So. Once around, A through D get to beat on 4, 4 is stunned on his own turn, E's readied action triggers and instead of going after 4, now he's going before him, and has a readied action in the pile. Another time around and A through D get to beat on 4 some more. During D's turn, E takes the readied action and laughs in 4's face; instead of being next after D, E's place in the initiative order is bumped to just before D's. Monster 4 is still stunned... boy does he wish E would just actually take a turn, already. A through C get to beat on monster #4 some more, assuming at this point that he's not simply dead. Then E actually takes a turn, during which he undoubtedly nails 4 with something nasty (like another end-of-next-turn stun if he's got one!). But let's be nice and say E misses this time. D takes his turn (and gets his own third round of beating on 4, though now 4's no longer stunned). Then 4 gets to go, assuming it's not a thin red paste by now.
But of course this was only one level of meta. E could as easily, and quite legitimately, have said (probably with the aid of a diagram):
Code:
"Action point. Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Ready action: do
[Intimidate 4 to surrender if he's not already dead]
when 5 takes his last action on his turn]
when A takes his last action on his turn]
when 1 takes his last action on his turn]
when 2 takes his last action on his turn]
when C takes his last action on his turn]
when 3 takes his last action on his turn]
when D takes his last action on his turn]
when 4 loses its actions due to being stunned."Now, there are technically ways around this if the DM is canny... when your next loop is dependent on 3's last action, 3 delays until after E's turn. So there. But you can work around that by simply tightening up the loop and using only friendly turns as triggers... and, regardless, now you've not only looped poor monster 4 a couple of times already, but you've also delayed 3 by several PCs' turns so that you can now kill him before he acts next. And so forth.
(And yes, I do realize that part of the Ready Action text says: "It takes place after your enemy completes the action that triggers it." But this is far from clear and would, for example, invalidate the otherwise perfectly reasonable tactic which I'll discuss below. And, even if enforced, wouldn't fix the hole - it would just make it a game of duelling timing-exploits between player and DM.)
===================
Worst yet, in my opinion, isn't the room for deliberate abuse. I mean, really, you come to me as a DM with that stuff and you, your exploit, and your PC are out of my game... unless I really, really like you, in which case I'll merely say "No."
But I can do the zeroth-order one by accident, too! In fact this is what prompted my realization of the loop. Say I'm playing a warlock, with a cleric in the party, and an initiative order of Rogue-Cleric-Monster-Me. I've got a daily which targets AC (Curse of the Bloody Fangs) and want all the bonuses I can get ASAP, so I start out with "Okay. Frigid Darkness to give us all CA and yoink his AC down a bunch, and then action point to nail him with the Fangs." My cleric buddy says, "Hey, hang on - I go before Monster, why don't you get that ready for after I try to nail him with Lance of Faith, and if it hits I'll pass you that targeting bonus as well." Excellent suggestion, sound tactics, no exploits intended whatsoever.
What happens? Frigid Darkness gives us all CA and drops Monster's AC by, say, three, until the end of my next turn. Rogue cackles gleefully and schwacks it hard, Monster gets its turn (since this isn't a stunlock scenario), then Cleric does, hits with Lance of Faith (or doesn't), and I fire my Curse off at the monster. This sets my initiative to right in front of Cleric, and after Rogue. Which means that both Monster and Rogue end up getting a second turn each, during this "until the end of your next turn" duration effect. Rogue's a Brutal Scoundrel with Backstabber; that's a world of bonus hurt, at this level.
Level that up, and it's just about a free Orb of Imposition (second form) every time, for any class.
What's more, if I was taking ongoing damage, not only am I avoiding the end of my turn, but also the start of it... so Rogue gets one extra turn to try and end the encounter before the ongoing damage takes me out. Knowing that this is possible, and seeing myself one round from unconscious, my motivations as an honest player are rather gimped. Do I have to avoid Cleric's perfectly sound tactical suggestion on the grounds that it'll also trigger a rules exploit which would keep me alive and give Rogue a bonus round of CA? If yes, internally where do I set my "this is a sound tactical reason, I'm not just using the exploit" meter - can I justify it if Cleric's bonus is just going to take me from hitting on a 3 to hitting on a 2?
Yuck.
Needs fix.
=======================
My thought is to expand on that so-innocuous sentence, "After you resolve your readied action, move your place in the initiative order to directly before the creature or the event that triggered your readied action." Piggyback it off of the very careful way in which they've handled Delay Turn.
Try this: "After you resolve your readied action, move your place in the initiative order to directly before the creature or the event that triggered your readied action. Technically, you delay your next turn (see page 288) until just before the creature or event which triggered your readied action. Do this even if circumstances (such as being dazed or unable to take actions) would normally prohibit you from delaying your turn."
I still think both Delay and Ready should permit you to sustain a power - it doesn't really make sense to me that your wall of fire should collapse just because you chose to interact tactically with the rest of the party like this. I'm just not certain how to permit this without opening things up to exploits similar to the Ready Action loop I've just gone to great lengths to patch up. Hmph.
===================
Any comments?
