Gaping "Ready Action" hole

[Eric Finley]

Yes, after having thought about it since the OP, I concur... but I'm not sure this helps. Per RAW, anyway, "when I shout 'Ala-peanut-sandwiches' " does appear to be a legal trigger. And that's a free action which can be taken during anyone's turn - even if they're not taking any actions of their own during that turn. (Their turn's not skipped, otherwise they couldn't ever save against the stun.)

Anyway, the innocuous/accidental version uses triggers which are clearly identified and quite separate from the target's state (stunned or otherwise), such as my example with the Cleric's Lance of Faith as the trigger. Moreover stunlock is not the only thing we're worried about... having it extend other effects like dazed, or blinded, or AC-penalized or what have you, all of which would give plenty of triggers (or de facto stun it if the monster refrains from acting), is still a problem.

I did address that in the original post...

 

[Bagpuss]

Would the easiest solution be to say you can't Ready in a turn you use an Action Point.

After all Action Point implies "Action!" not thinking about an a little action later.

 

[ricardo440]

The DM just slaps the player.

If you are going to be that ludicrous about your readied action and up your own **** about your rules interpretation you will actually hold the entire game in a lock.

P 267 of the PHB what happens in a combat round:

6. Begin the next round. When every combatant has
had a turn, the round ends. Begin the next round
with the combatant who has the highest initiative.

Alas seeing as your wizard has never taken his turn the round will never end. You have just locked your entire D&D game, nobody can ever act again.

This is of course absurd, just like the idea in the first post.

 

[mneme]

If you are going to be that ludicrous about your readied action and up your own **** about your rules interpretation you will actually hold the entire game in a lock.
...
Alas seeing as your wizard has never taken his turn the round will never end. You have just locked your entire D&D game, nobody can ever act again.

Er...this doesn't work. By this interpretation, a perfectly normal thing to do (eg, ready an action; when the monster going before me charges, shoot) will lock the game.

 

[Mirtek]

I am pretty sure that there is a rule that you can not extend any duration or avoid any effect by delaying your turn. If you delay the effect ends/occurs at the original initative when you startet or were affected by it.

I am just not sure where this rule is located.

 

[Eric Finley]

Bagpuss... unfortunately, no. Action Points are not the problem, there's just the easiest engine for it to appear. I can't come up with example offhand, but I'm sure that a devoted search would turn up an instance where I could (a) take a minor action which inflicted, say, Blinded until EoNT, and then ready using my standard action. Alternately, an Orb wizard casts a Blind-until-EoNT on turn one, then on his next turn he readies an action and uses the Orb ability to extend his Blind until the end of his next turn. Either situation also triggers the effect. Fixing action points isn't the solution.

And, mneme, let's not feed the troll. If his interpretation of the initiative sequence is such that the character with the worst initiative roll can neither delay turn nor ready an action, because the end of the round "clears the slate" (or, requires a clean slate, else game locks), then so be it. It'd be grossly counterintuitive in places, no doubt, but it might also honestly provide an interesting tactical situation and an incentive to prioritize initiative. (Of course, in this situation, the entry "Losing a Delayed Turn" on PHB p.288 addresses a situation that can never, by definition, occur. But hey, apparently that doesn't bother our friend here.)

While we're on the topic of delays/readies... I thought of a possible solution to the Sustained Effects issue related to this. What bugs me about this in the RAW is simply this - a Sustained Effect is supposed to be continuous, so long as you concentrate on it. So, apparently you can (say) cast a 29th level daily spell without disrupting that concentration (assuming it's a Sustain Move or Minor), but even a tiny bit of tactical coordination with your allies (holding back a strike until after the Fighter scrambles out of the blast radius) is a deal-breaker. Huh??

Now, if there's simply no solution that doesn't open up a can of loopholes, fine; but if I can, I'd like to come up with a solution that allows things that are supposed to be continuous to remain so, like intuition would assume.

My thought is this:
- When you delay, you can commit to a sustain action on the delayed turn. (Basically, you say, "I'm going to delay until after Joe, but yeah, I'll keep the Wall of Acid in effect.") The effect is provisionally sustained and remains in effect. If the sustain action has an effect other than "the effect persists", you don't do that now.
- When your delayed turn comes up, you must spend that action and sustain the effect. The sustain action is resolved normally.
- If, at any point, you suddenly don't have access to the action you committed to do but haven't performed yet (such as because you were stunned, or it's a Sustain Standard and you got hit with Far Realm Phantasm from Dragon #366 which coopts your next standard action, or what have you), the sustained effect stops immediately. If you have an Action Point and you could use that to keep the sustain going (works in the Far Realm Phantasm case, not in the stun), then you can commit to that as well, if you want.

Two examples:
1) Wizard has cast Flaming Sphere, and has been sustaining it for a while. But he's immobilized at range nine to the sphere, range 11 to an ogre, and range 12 to Fighter (all in a line). Fighter's got Tide of Iron and offers to use it. Wizard delays until after Fighter (who, say, goes right after Wizard anyway).

Per RAW: Wizard delays, Flaming Sphere evaporates instantly.
Per this fix: Wizard delays, commits to sustaining the Sphere. Fighter acts, uses Tide of Iron to push the ogre adjacent to the Sphere and to within 10 of Wizard. Wizard takes his delayed turn. His minor action MUST be to sustain the Sphere. He does so, and adds a Scorching Burst as well, hitting the ogre nice and hard.

2) Same example, but between Wizard and Fighter there's an oni. Wizard delays and commits to maintaining the sphere. Oni hits Wizard with a stun-until-EoNT smash to the head. Wizard's commitment to maintain the sphere now can't be kept; the sphere evaporates as soon as we see that Wizard is stunned.

Now... can anyone construct an abuse with this rule? How about an abuse which is nonobvious and/or intevitable, and thus can't be remedied with the GM smack-stick?

(PS: Crossposted with Mirtek. Mirtek, yes; it's PHB p.288 you're thinking of. This thread exists because Ready Action, p.291, does not have those restrictions in place, yet accomplishes much the same thing. My fix is to find a way in which the Delay Turn restrictions you refer to can also apply in a logical way to Ready Action's effects.)

 

[ricardo440]

And, mneme, let's not feed the troll. If his interpretation of the initiative sequence is such that the character with the worst initiative roll can neither delay turn nor ready an action, because the end of the round "clears the slate" (or, requires a clean slate, else game locks), then so be it. It'd be grossly counterintuitive in places, no doubt, but it might also honestly provide an interesting tactical situation and an incentive to prioritize initiative. (Of course, in this situation, the entry "Losing a Delayed Turn" on PHB p.288 addresses a situation that can never, by definition, occur. But hey, apparently that doesn't bother our friend here.)

I think you have just proved my point.
Taking a single rule to an extreme that clearly is not intended breaks the game and should simply be ignored. That is your argument against the absurd suggestion I made.
It is my argument against your absurd Stun lock.

Your argument against my ridiculous idea is that p.288 implies it should never happen.
I would say that p.288 also implies that when you would have had a turn all beneficial effects end.

Thanks for calling me a troll. "I'm a monster! Rarrrgh!"

 

[Eric Finley]

Ricardo... PLEASE just go back up to the OP, and look at the section (delineated by ===== separators) which begins with "Worst yet,...". Initiative order Rogue-Cleric-Monster-Warlock; on turn one, Warlock readies an action for after one of Cleric's actions. All perfectly reasonable on everyone's part.

By your interpretation, it would seem that either round two cannot end (because the only thing Warlock has done between its start and its end is his readied action, he doesn't have a turn during this time), or Warlock is not permitted to do this (because it would cause the game to stall out per the above). It seems clear to us that this is not the case. This isn't us taking your assertion to a ridiculous extreme, dude... it's the bare core of what you asserted.

I leave it up to your behaviour in the light of this very reasonable reference, to material that was in the OP for Pete's sake, to clarify trollishness or otherwise.

If, on the other hand, your only objection is to the abusive form of what I pointed out (especially the recursive form which, happily, we've dealt with inside of RAW), then you can walk away. Everyone agrees that it's ridiculous. However, it is nonetheless legal by RAW, and references to p.288 won't help you there because delay is not readying, and nothing in RAW connects the two.

I would say that p.288 also implies that when you would have had a turn all beneficial effects end.

Whereas I would say that this clearly only applies to the Delay Turn action, as written. And that in order to apply it to the Ready Action text, you need a fix, and one which does so in a careful way that doesn't insert more problems. (See half the suggestions by people in this thread, such as having your readied action constitute your turn.)

Which is what I've done. Quite reasonably and calmly. Helps to be Canadian.

And then you swore about it. Your call, dude. Your call.

 

[ricardo440]

I think I disagree with your premise that it "needs a fix"

It took you two pages of analysis to explain the situation. Any problem with a set of rules so complex can simply be ignored.

The first reply post suggested what 99.9% of DMs would do instantly. They would go "hold on, this monsters had this for two rounds now; erm, it ended on your go, hey and take that ongoing 5 damage too, you thought you could miss that".

If you read the delay rules (before the box) it says you can delay till later in the ROUND. The round ends at the bottom of the initiative pass. The section on missing your turn implies you can delay over into the next round.

You already said you would just say you can do this. So if you have no problem with an in game fix with no new text (i.e. one you just play and don't worry about) to say you can delay over the top of a round without making a fuss about it because that is clearly what is intended, it is also clearly intended that every round you have a turn so the bad stuff can happen and the good stuff can end.

It doesn't need a fix, because it is rarely if ever going to happen. And as your later posts proved, the more complex you make the rule to try to "fix" your problem, the more loopholes you add for other things. It is not a "gaping hole" it is a minor scratch at best, and one that only shows when the light is from a certain direction.

 

[DracoSuave]

Ready allows you to ready for when an action is taken. 'Not taking an action' is, by definition, not an action taken, and therefore cannot be a trigger.

However, when you ready an action, it moves your initiative to be next. When your inititive comes up, even if you take no actions, you still resolve things that are not in your favor, i.e. end of duration stuff. You cannot use Delay or Ready action to circumvent durations that are of benefit to you, only make them shorter, RAW.