Gaping "Ready Action" hole

[mneme]

Actually in such a situation, I wouldnt lay my books aside. I'd likely slap the player with the book just to make sure the point is clear.

*sigh* FWIW, not impressed with the "the solution to someone trying to make the rules clear is to slap them" stance.

Silly reducto ad absurdium action aside (and not realizing that Ready moves your turn before the action you're responding to, so you can't continue it indefinitely even with rules abuse and readies on null actions), the problem is that "Ready An Action" lets you potentially avoid ending an effect for nearly a full round -- the issue isn't "how do I abuse this" or "you are an evil person for noting this", but "is this accetable/fair, and if not, what's the approriate rules fix for it").

Ignoring RAW doesn't -help- unless you have a model for how it works in your system, and since Readied actions are all -about- double-dipping beneficial effects (look at various designer blogs) and teamwork, discussing where the limits are is a -good- thing.

 

[Runestar]

I wouldn't be so quick to chastise the OP.

Granted, his explanation is so long and wordy, and to be honest, I still don't quite get what he is trying to say, but this seems to be a scenario which is simply very difficult to articulate properly, but could easily happen in anyone's game. It looks like it would be fairly easy and straightforward to play out, and I think emphasis should be placed on the part where he cautions how it could play out inadvertently (in essence, it could happen when someone does something as innocuous as readying an action).

 

[x93edwards]

I humbly disagree with Mr. Finley's opinion of how the Ready action works.

The way I understand the rule, is that a character that readies an action still has an End of Turn phase at the same initiative count that he/she takes the Ready.

If the character takes that readied action later in the same round, then no problem because the End of Turn already took place, but if the character takes that readied action in the next round then the Start and End phase takes place at that new initiative count because the Start and End phase must always happen.

So I don't see the "hole".

 

[Saeviomagy]

I humbly disagree with Mr. Finley's opinion of how the Ready action works.

The way I understand the rule, is that a character that readies an action still has an End of Turn phase at the same initiative count that he/she takes the Ready.

Which doesn't matter because the effect in question is lasting until the end of their NEXT turn, not the end of their current one.

If the character takes that readied action later in the same round, then no problem because the End of Turn already took place, but if the character takes that readied action in the next round then the Start and End phase takes place at that new initiative count because the Start and End phase must always happen.

Apart from this entire concept of rounds and turns NOT being how the game works, in the case where the readied action occurs later in the same round, the problem still occurs: the end of the players NEXT round will be at the new initiative count, which has moved from just after the foe to just before it, meaning that everyone except the monster and the player in question sees the monster being afflicted with the condition for two initiative passes.

So I don't see the "hole".

 

[eamon]

In normal gameplay, there's the balancing factor that the trigger might not go off at all. Also; although you may stun the opponent an extra round, you're also losing an extra round (or an action point) yourself.

I agree that it's lame that you can't sustain when you delay.

The implementation of ready and delay in general aren't very nice. A house rule to fix them should aim to be simpler; not more complex.

 

[Eric Finley]

Here here to eamon's request. I'd love that, but I'm really not sure how it could be accomplished. Fire away if you think you can come up with one, though!

 

[Wyrd One]

Here's the scenario. We have PCs A through E, monsters 1 through 5. The initial initiative order is interleaved: A, 1, B, 2, C, 3, D, 4, E, 5.

E is our stun-wizard. He nails 4 with a stun which lasts until the end of his (E's) next turn. Now (deliberately abusing the exploit here) he spends an action point to ready an action for "as soon as monster 4 misses an action due to being stunned" or something equivalent.

He readies a free action of laughing in 4's face.

E's current turn ends normally. Everything's normal (monster 4 is stunned so everybody beats on him) until we get to 4's turn. Monster 4 is stunned and does nothing, and this (or equivalent, see above) triggers the readied action. E resolves the action ("Bwa ha ha!") and then, per the PHB p.291, moves his position in the initiative order to immediately before the triggering creature's turn - in this case that's 4. So the initiative order is now: A, 1, B, 2, C, 3, D, E, 4, 5. The end of 4's turn occurs, monster 5 acts normally.

Then A, B, C and D all get another action against 4 while it's stunned. Uh-oh. This is where we're screwed. The end of E's turn has taken much longer to come 'round than it should.

I think in round 1 E cast his spell and used an action point to ready an action.

Then round 2 comes around, E's readied action is triggered, his initiative order is moved, and his turn in round 2 ends, thus ending the stun effect.

The readied action is E's turn for round 2, when that ends the stun effect ends with it.

Unless you're saying E has no turn at all in round 2, but he performed an action so he must have had a turn, and it must have ended.

 

[Nail]

Unless you're saying E has no turn at all in round 2, but he performed an action so he must have had a turn, and it must have ended.

E has no turn in round 2, as his turn in the initiative doesn't come up in round 2. His readied action is from his round 1 turn.

 

[Wyrd One]

E has no turn in round 2, as his turn in the initiative doesn't come up in round 2. His readied action is from his round 1 turn.

He readies the action in round 1. He takes the readied action in round 2, effectively taking his turn. He interrupts Monster 4's turn and takes his own turn.

That's why you move your initiative order to that place, because you just took your turn.

 

[Toriel]

I believe that the first premise is wrong simply by the fact that you cannot delay a free action. Since you can take a free action anytime, even during another's turn, you simply do it. If it was allowed to delay the free action, it would not change the initiative order. For the ini order to be modified, the character would have to take an actual action that he could only do on his turn.

Another point I would like to bring (note that I don't have the books with me at the moment so I cannot verify this) is that I seem to recall having read somewhere that when someone delays an action, effects which end at the beginning/end of your next turn are resolved differently. This should be verified in both the PHB and the DMG.