Gating in a Balor and a Solar

[William_2]

With regard to HD, I think the intent of the spell is very clear that the HD of the summoned creatures, as well as the type (and in some cases number), are choices the caster makes. It is possible to gate in something you can’t control, but I don’t think the DM should have that happen against the caster’s will without letting them know well in advance that the is the new house rule.

In general, I don’t see the problem with characters using this power over others they might use instead. Sure it is powerful- it is also a 9th level spell. However, if it seems a problem, I do like the idea of gated in individuals not taking kindly to it- there is nothing in the spell that suggests they can’t. I would work that in slowly, though, rather than have 20 Balors turn up for revenge. That seems a little unfair. Maybe even warn the players that there might be consequences to persistently controlling powerful creatures. They might take the hint, cut back a bit, and problem solved.

 

[gfunk]

IMC, we play it the following way, unless you have a pre-arranged relationship with the beings that you gate, there will be serious repercussions.

For instance, if you are a good cleric you may petition your deity to gate in a Solar. Conversely, evil spellcasters can make pacts with certain evil gods or powerful outsiders to get a Balor or Pit Fiend.

Here is an amusing example, from my Story Hour, as to what happens when a CE Sorcerer gates in a LG Solar.

WARNING: SPOILERS FROM THE MODULE "BASTION OF BROKEN SOULS" AHEAD!!

Seeing that both of her companions had been temporarily incapacitated by the Cathezar, she decided to summon help. Gesturing quickly, a radiant golden Gate opened behind the Cathezar.

Through the portal stepped a luminous humanoid figure with lithe but powerful muscles and gleaming white wings, holding a very large greatsword. It was a Solar, the most powerful celestial of the Upper Planes.

Of course, it was an incredible understatement to say that the magnificent Solar did not appreciate being called to do an evil sorcerer’s bidding, but as powerful as he was, he had little choice in the matter. With expert skill and precision, the celestial rained blow after blow upon the Cathezar aiming for her neck so that his decapitating vorpal sword could do its work.

As with Hor’ahun’s arrow, the first blow went harmlessly through the Cathezar. Recognizing the power of her new enemy the assassin immediately went on the defensive but suffered a large gash to her shoulder nonetheless.

Sandwiched between Entropy and the Solar, the Cathezar knew that this situation did not favor her. Concentrating, to avoid a potentially beheading strike, she teleported out of the room.

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The Solar stared at Entropy with a gaze of pure hatred, “You will pay for summoning me mortal! Even the greatest of Heaven’s champions may not call on me when they are in peril. Yet you have the gall to compel me to fight your battles? Your arrogance will not go unpunished!!”

“Wish her back.”

“What!?”

“You heard me Solar, wish the Cathezar back!”

Seeing that he would have to back up his words with actions later, the Solar complied. Attuning himself to the Weave, he tried to grasp the form of the Cathezar and wrench her back to his location. Though the Solar’s spell was mighty, the demon’s resistance to magic was mightier still and nothing happened.

“It cannot be done.”

“Unfortunate. Then your service to me is concluded.”

The celestial’s eyes narrowed, his visage becoming one of pure anger. The sight would send most mortals running for their lives. “Remember my words sorcerer. You will pay.”

“Right, right, whatever. Piss off angel-boy, I’m the descendant of Dydd.”

As it turns out, this particular Solar did have his opportunity for revenge . . .

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In general, I don’t see the problem with characters using this power over others they might use instead. Sure it is powerful- it is also a 9th level spell. However, if it seems a problem, I do like the idea of gated in individuals not taking kindly to it- there is nothing in the spell that suggests they can’t. I would work that in slowly, though, rather than have 20 Balors turn up for revenge. That seems a little unfair. Maybe even warn the players that there might be consequences to persistently controlling powerful creatures. They might take the hint, cut back a bit, and problem solved.

That's why you find out the name of a single balor and keep summoning it rather than summoning 20 different ones. And you think other balors will be upset if he dies? Not likely. In fact, some of them might find ways to sneak the names of other balors to you - to eliminate rivals and to keep themselves off of your Gate list.

The great thing about messing around with demons is that they have no loyalty to one another.

 

[Rackhir]

That's why you find out the name of a single balor and keep summoning it rather than summoning 20 different ones. And you think other balors will be upset if he dies? Not likely. In fact, some of them might find ways to sneak the names of other balors to you - to eliminate rivals and to keep themselves off of your Gate list.

The great thing about messing around with demons is that they have no loyalty to one another.

This is true, but balors and such are usually major servants to more powerful creatures. Demogorgon or Grazz't are unlikely to look favorably upon mortals who either keep getting their servants killed or are constantly summoning them to do the mortal's purposes rather than the Demon Lords.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

This is true, but balors and such are usually major servants to more powerful creatures. Demogorgon or Grazz't are unlikely to look favorably upon mortals who either keep getting their servants killed or are constantly summoning them to do the mortal's purposes rather than the Demon Lords.

In which case one demon prince is sneaking you the names of another's most powerful servants. Remember, they're fighting each other all the time. Demogorgon could even say "Look, as long as you keep taking Grazz't's guys and leave mine alone, and I'll prevent Grazz't from directly coming after you." Demogorgon has no reason to break its word, as this deal works out pretty well for it. Now, who would make such a bargain with a demon? Only the kind of wizard who would be calling upon demons to do his bidding in the first place.

 

[Rackhir]

In which case one demon prince is sneaking you the names of another's most powerful servants. Remember, they're fighting each other all the time. Demogorgon could even say "Look, as long as you keep taking Grazz't's guys and leave mine alone, and I'll prevent Grazz't from directly coming after you." Demogorgon has no reason to break its word, as this deal works out pretty well for it. Now, who would make such a bargain with a demon? Only the kind of wizard who would be calling upon demons to do his bidding in the first place.

Look, we can go back and forth on this for a very long time. Do you at least understand the reasoning behind my point of view?

 

[gfunk]

"Look, as long as you keep taking Grazz't's guys and leave mine alone, and I'll prevent Grazz't from directly coming after you." Demogorgon has no reason to break its word, as this deal works out pretty well for it.

Riiiiight.

That is until one head of Demogorgon (Hethradiah) tries to screw the other head (Aamuel) . . .

 

[gfunk]

In general, I don’t see the problem with characters using this power over others they might use instead. Sure it is powerful- it is also a 9th level spell. However, if it seems a problem, I do like the idea of gated in individuals not taking kindly to it- there is nothing in the spell that suggests they can’t. I would work that in slowly, though, rather than have 20 Balors turn up for revenge. That seems a little unfair. Maybe even warn the players that there might be consequences to persistently controlling powerful creatures. They might take the hint, cut back a bit, and problem solved.

This is a very equitable solution to a potential problem and it's the way we play it IMC.

 

[Mouseferatu]

That's why you find out the name of a single balor and keep summoning it rather than summoning 20 different ones. And you think other balors will be upset if he dies? Not likely. In fact, some of them might find ways to sneak the names of other balors to you - to eliminate rivals and to keep themselves off of your Gate list.

The great thing about messing around with demons is that they have no loyalty to one another.

Maybe that's what they'd do at first, sure.

But after the second or third balor dies in your service, I can guarantee that at least a few of them are going to say, "You know something? We'd better take this guy out before we're next."

Demons have no loyalty to each other, but they're really big on both pride and survival.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Look, we can go back and forth on this for a very long time. Do you at least understand the reasoning behind my point of view?

Sure. I do understand your reasoning, though I don't share it. I think the backstabbing nature of Evil creatures is generally Good's best chance to survive - given that there are an infinite number of levels of the Abyss, they would wipe out everyone else if they cooperated or had the slightest shred of empathy for one another.