Gating in a Balor and a Solar

[Elder-Basilisk]

In fact, they might just call up a "friendly" like an evil cleric or cultist of the deity/demon lord they serve and have that "friendly" call them to the prime. One free service or whatever was agreed on, and then they're on the prime, and free to find whoever summoned them the last time and lay the smack down.

Maybe that's what they'd do at first, sure.

But after the second or third balor dies in your service, I can guarantee that at least a few of them are going to say, "You know something? We'd better take this guy out before we're next."

Demons have no loyalty to each other, but they're really big on both pride and survival.

 

[Endur]

My understanding of Gate.

1) Gate allows a single creature of less than 2x caster level to be controlled. Therefore, summoning a Balor, Pit Fiend, or a Solar is pretty typical if you are a level 17+ caster who can cast Gate.

2) Divine casters can't summon creatures of opposing alignments. i.e. no Balors gated by Lawful Good clerics.

3) "Unique Beings" means you are summoning a creature by name. If you summon a specific creature, that creature comes through the gate uncontrolled according to the spell. you can then attempt to use other spells or negotiation to control the specific creature.

4) If a called creature is slain, there are always consequences. That creature's family, minions, and liege will come looking for the summoner.

5) No summoned wishes or other spells that have an experience point component. My ruling is that the control does not force the summoned creature to spend its own exp.

6) Even if the called creature is not slain, the called creature will seek redress against the summoner if the creature has the ability to do so and has the desire for payback.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

4) If a called creature is slain, there are always consequences. That creature's family, minions, and liege will come looking for the summoner.

A balor has no family, its minions will be glad for the vacancy at the top, although I concede its liege might be upset if it knows the circumstances of what transpired and has the ability to act. Other princes will be pleased to have a rival's top lietutenant knocked off (back in AD&D1 there were what, 6 balors total?)

5) No summoned wishes or other spells that have an experience point component. My ruling is that the control does not force the summoned creature to spend its own exp.

That's the rule for summoning, not calling. Called creatures can be forced to grant wishes by the RAW, but you'd have to be really really stupid (or vastly overconfident in your lawyering ability) to ever force an efreet or a balor to grant you a wish. A solar? I dunno, there you might get away with it if your goals agreed with its goals.

6) Even if the called creature is not slain, the called creature will seek redress against the summoner if the creature has the ability to do so and has the desire for payback.

Probably so. Good reason to make sure you balors die in the line of duty (and hey, those death throes might be enough to finish off whatever it was you called the balor to fight).

 

[TheGogmagog]

As to the question of if PC's can be summoned: I think that it summons and Extraplanar creature. Odds are the PC's are prime material creatures. They may have changed the wording on that though.

However when a shimmering gate appears before your party they will probably walk through it. Darn out of character asumptions that the DM wouldn't just open up a gate into a death trap. If your characters arn't that curious make it more subtle. You find a switch, you pull it and the door you are trying to open clicks and at the same time behind you a portal opens up.

These are inteligent and quite powerfull creatures, they may forgive or not triffle with an occasional disruption, but if it happened several times a week let alone a day, I would expect a warning of the repercussions. Even a Solar may call on them for some quid pro quo task. Which could be quite the adventuring hook.

 

[Jack Simth]

Oh, it does specify extraplanar - however, extraplanar is not the same thing as not being from the material plane; it just means that they aren't from the plane they are called to. If you are on the plane of Air, a horse is extraplanar, and could be called (why though?). A Dijinn could concievably Gate the PC's to the Plane of Air, although the PC's may qualify as unique beings, and not be forced through.

 

[moritheil]

There were in fact six balors total in 1ed. Some lucky bastard demon got promoted whenever one of them died.

While a balor hardly has devoted friends, I tend to agree with Mouseferatu's assessment - sure, knocking off one or two may not cause waves, but if, say, it's only been a month since you got Gate and you're into your eleventh dead balor, some of them are going to come to some sort of truce to take you out. They aren't stupid. They might kill each other afterwards, but at least they won't die at the hands of some upstart mortal.

Of course, I want to stress that this is a campaign setting and feel detail, and as such is entirely subject to DM ruling. Your DM can make his balors as conniving or as prideful as he or she wants.

A balor has no family, its minions will be glad for the vacancy at the top, although I concede its liege might be upset if it knows the circumstances of what transpired and has the ability to act. Other princes will be pleased to have a rival's top lietutenant knocked off (back in AD&D1 there were what, 6 balors total?)

That's the rule for summoning, not calling. Called creatures can be forced to grant wishes by the RAW, but you'd have to be really really stupid (or vastly overconfident in your lawyering ability) to ever force an efreet or a balor to grant you a wish. A solar? I dunno, there you might get away with it if your goals agreed with its goals.

Probably so. Good reason to make sure you balors die in the line of duty (and hey, those death throes might be enough to finish off whatever it was you called the balor to fight).

 

[werk]

Sure. I do understand your reasoning, though I don't share it. I think the backstabbing nature of Evil creatures is generally Good's best chance to survive - given that there are an infinite number of levels of the Abyss, they would wipe out everyone else if they cooperated or had the slightest shred of empathy for one another.

As I recall, all outer planes are infinite. So it really doesn't matter if you have one infinite plane or an infinite number of infinite planes...can you square infinity?

I think good's best chance to survive is universal (multiversal?) balance. Like the Dungeon Master said in the old cartoon, in order for it to rain in one place, another must go dry (or something to that effect) yin/yang, blah blah. This would probably play itself out in-game as forces of evil becoming more powerful than good, but instead of destroying good once and for all, instead decides to attack itself to see who 'wins'. Basically, you are right, but I don't think it is because the reason that you think it is


ON TOPIC - Dieties or level-controlling creatures can prohibit this sort of summoning. You better bet that a LG diety that employs (so to speak) the Solar or celestial, are not going to allow the chaos of random, unpredictable summoning of his peons. Same for Demon Princes or Arch-Fiends. As the caster determines the plane that is on the other side of the gate, he would need to pick a pre-arranged 'friendly' location to pull from, or pull from an uncontrolled area. So while you might be able to pull in a rutterkin or guardinal, I doubt you'd find any unclaimed Balor or Solars. It all speaks to the value of pre-arranging someone who is willing to help the party.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

And no one has mentioned yet that a gate is an open door.

First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

If the caster opens a gate to 'the abyss' to summon 'a Balor' start pouring the demon horde through that gate. The caster may control (at least one) Balor, but the other 8,000/round demons might cause some problems for the party.

Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

As I recall, all outer planes are infinite. So it really doesn't matter if you have one infinite plane or an infinite number of infinite planes...can you square infinity?

Well, there are different levels of infinity. For example, there are infinite number of integers, and an infinite number of rational numbers, and these two infinities are of the same level - you can design a one-to-one mapping of integers to rationals. Then there are an infinite number of irrational numbers, but that is of another level and so is infinitely more than the integers/rational level. So, yes, infinite can be more than infinite.

Point is, the Abyss was always supposed to have way, way more demons than there were angels or devils. In 2E, the demons couldn't win the Blood War because they are disordered and back-stabbing (and, presumably, they couldn't conquer the heavens for the same reason).

 

[Herremann the Wise]

can you square infinity?

Well, there are different levels of infinity. For example, there are infinite number of integers, and an infinite number of rational numbers, and these two infinities are of the same level - you can design a one-to-one mapping of integers to rationals. Then there are an infinite number of irrational numbers, but that is of another level and so is infinitely more than the integers/rational level. So, yes, infinite can be more than infinite.

Not wanting to get mathematical here... well in actual fact I do but please excuse the tangent... and the added pun.

I disagree with Brother MacLaren's specific statement: "so, yes, infinite can be more than infinite" but I sympathise with his tenor and example. I'll simply say that infinity is a very slippery concept. Think of it not as a specific destination but as a never ending journey, a place so far off that you could never calculate it or get there - or even in fact know exactly where it is. However, some "things" attempt this journey more quickly than others. This is what I think is meant by a term such as "infinity squared". The intended destination is the same but the journey is... infinitely quicker.

I will now return you to regular viewing...

No I won't.

[pimp] If you're interested, you can check out my Story Hour (see sig) where Lucifus Cray "gates" in the Greater Devil Sarrash. If you want to see exactly how catastrophic gating in something beyond your control is, it's a fun place to start. Hope to see you there.[/pimp]

Now I will.

Please excuse all instances of tangential discussion and blatant self promotion.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[moritheil]

I like this solution, as it speaks less of revenge and more of immedate problems caused by the act of gating. 8,000 might be a bit extreme - after all, the gate has limited dimensions, I imagine. However, even 10 uncontrolled demons/round could pose serious problems for a group. (Dance of ruin, anyone?)

If the caster opens a gate to 'the abyss' to summon 'a Balor' start pouring the demon horde through that gate. The caster may control (at least one) Balor, but the other 8,000/round demons might cause some problems for the party.