Gauntlets and a monk's unarmed strikes

[melkorspawn]

How could I get his unarmed strikes to bypass their DR? Holy would be good, if there were a way to do it.

Anyone else got any ideas?

VoP from BoED

 

[Hypersmurf]

AFAIK, there isn't a way to do it in any WOTC product...

Levels in Kensei.

Bracers of Striking.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

AFAIK, there isn't a way to do it in any WOTC product...

Permanent greater magic fang? Amulet of mighty fists?

So the general consensus on this is that if you use gauntlets for your unarmed strike, you don't get to use your monk unarmed strike damage?

I won't speak for the general consensus, but the gauntlet and the monk's unarmed strike are listed as separate damage bases. How can you attack with the gauntlet and use a different damage die? You're either attacking with the gauntlet or not.

But, you pointedly ignored my other question , which was how do you overcome the DR/cold iron when a monk headbutts while wearing the gauntlets? Remember that his unarmed strike is not limited to his fists and it's only a matter of flavor whether the monk performs his unarmed strike with his fists, feet, headbutt, or whatever.

 

[IcyCool]

But, you pointedly ignored my other question , which was how do you overcome the DR/cold iron when a monk headbutts while wearing the gauntlets? Remember that his unarmed strike is not limited to his fists and it's only a matter of flavor whether the monk performs his unarmed strike with his fists, feet, headbutt, or whatever.

Well, I'm not sure why you even asked it, as it doesn't seem relevant . An unarmed strike isn't restricted to punches. But you'll note that I asked if a monk that strikes with the gauntlets gets to use his monk unarmed strike damage.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, I'm not sure why you even asked it, as it doesn't seem relevant . An unarmed strike isn't restricted to punches. But you'll note that I asked if a monk that strikes with the gauntlets gets to use his monk unarmed strike damage.

Ah, but it is relevant. I did not intend any trickery, honest, which is why I asked about a headbutt. The point of asking is to point out that a monk's unarmed strike is with any part of his body, not just his hands or fists or knuckles or fingers. But, you are saying that whenever a monk makes an unarmed strike, he does 1d6+1 and overcomes DR/cold iron and magic. I'm saying that's impossible because he does not have +1 cold iron helmet, or hip pads, etc.

This comment is a direct response to your question, "Just how does a gauntlet interact with a monk's unarmed strike?" The answer is that it doesn't because a monk's unarmed strike is much more than his hands or fists.

 

[IcyCool]

But, you are saying that whenever a monk makes an unarmed strike, he does 1d6+1 and overcomes DR/cold iron and magic.

Well, I didn't say that. My assumption (which is stated in my first post) is/was as follows:

Assume a 1st level human monk is wearing +1 cold iron gauntlets. If he strikes with the gauntlets, he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (because he is considered armed), does 1d6+1 + Str mod damage, can do lethal damage, and overcomes DR/magic and Dr/cold iron.

This comment is a direct response to your question, "Just how does a gauntlet interact with a monk's unarmed strike?" The answer is that it doesn't because a monk's unarmed strike is much more than his hands or fists.

And yet, he can choose to strike with his hands or fists. And that is what I have been getting at. I am well aware that anyone, not just a monk, may make unarmed strikes with any part of their body. I know that just wearing +1 gauntlets doesn't make a monk's headbutt +1, and nowhere did I imply that it did. I specifically asked about a monk striking with the gauntlets, hence my thought that your bringing it up was irrelevant. Although, ironically, that is, essentially, the end result that I'm shooting for with the feat chain I'm putting together.

*shrug*

So I guess I have no idea what it is you are driving at. If there is a point you are making that I'm missing, be patient with me, I'm a bit slow.

I'll happily discuss the mechanics of said feats over in house rules, if you are interested.

 

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

So the real problem your coming up against is enchanting your unarmed attacks to stay on a par wiht other charcters, am I right?

Firstly, I think the monk has been designed to stop you enchanting your unarmed attacks, which is why the unarmed attack damage goes up as the monk goes up, no one else in the game can weild a weapon doing D20, and have the amount of attacks. Enchanting your unarmed attacks would make you overpowered.

So in that context, no I wouldnt allow you to use gauntlets, and still get your unarmed attack damage, because 1d3 and 1d6 arent that far apart, at level 20 1d3 and 1d20 are very much different.

However, saying that, monks do lose out as they cant have flaming or ghost touch unarmed attacks, this can make them a liability later in game, unless they choose to use monk weapons, but then thats using game rules instead of the flavour of the monk you have chosen to play (A monk should be able to choose to play unarmed, without being forced to use monk weapons)

I have 2 solutions, there are cetainly more

1 : Tattoos, there are already lots of monk tattoos, and I am not up to speed on all of them, but you could pay for an elaborate (magical tattoo) that gives you special abilities equal in price and abilites to having weapon enchants, difference is of course, you cant just swap bodies to suit occasions, so your tattoo enchants would have to be carefully thought out, I would also rule you can ONLY buy special abilites, and limit those to something suitable such as

Ghost touch
Bane
Damage Reduction

I am sure you and your GM can work something out

2 : You have some masterworked equipment made, say a headband, gloves and slippers, these are made by the same person, and are enchated at the same time, as one weapon would be, again I would limit you to just special proporties, but you could then carry different sets with different proporties like other characters might carry different weapons for different jobs

I would suggest a very supple leather, more of a clothing than armour variety, it shouldnt interfer with your unarmed damage, and by being worn on the head, hands and feet, its effects bestow the enchantment proporties to all unaremd attacks

This might cover what I think your after than going down the gauntlet route, which just doesnt look right on a monk anyway, and theres nothing earth shattering in it. I personally would go tattoo route, leaving your hands, feet and head free for other magic items, even though the tattoo is slightly more restrictive

Feegle Out

[edit]Damn my spelling sucks[/edit]

 

[Infiniti2000]

And yet, he can choose to strike with his hands or fists. And that is what I have been getting at. I am well aware that anyone, not just a monk, may make unarmed strikes with any part of their body.

The choice of punching your opponent or headbutting him is purely flavor. It would be like describing your sword strike as overhand vs. sideways vs. stabbing. Do you give +2 on damage for an overhand strike (sans any feats I'm unaware of)? No, of course not. Thus, there's no advantage to the person describing an "unarmed strike" as anything specific. What I'm saying is that if the monk wants to attack using the gauntlets, he must specifically attack with the gauntlets, not with his monk's unarmed strike, which is not so limited. Just because attacking with the gauntlets is otherwise an unarmed attack does not mean the monk can use a different damage die when attacking with the gauntlets.

(warning: argument to reason logical fallacy ahead ) If your interpretation of the gauntlet use was per the rules, then wouldn't that make an amulet of mighty fists a waste of money? The only benefit would be to allow attacks with non-fists, but it's at such a higher price as to make that option utterly stupid. Not only that, but it really hoses monks from races without hands (no gauntlet slot) because gauntlets are clearly not just the best way, but the only way to go to enhance your unarmed strike.

I'll happily discuss the mechanics of said feats over in house rules, if you are interested.

I stop in there from time to time, but if you post it I'll happily comment on it.

 

[IcyCool]

Just because attacking with the gauntlets is otherwise an unarmed attack does not mean the monk can use a different damage die when attacking with the gauntlets.

See? I knew that if we talked long enough, you'd get around to answering my question.

(warning: argument to reason logical fallacy ahead ) If your interpretation of the gauntlet use was per the rules, then wouldn't that make an amulet of mighty fists a waste of money? The only benefit would be to allow attacks with non-fists, but it's at such a higher price as to make that option utterly stupid. Not only that, but it really hoses monks from races without hands (no gauntlet slot) because gauntlets are clearly not just the best way, but the only way to go to enhance your unarmed strike.

I don't think it would make an amulet of mighty fists a waste of money. Anyone with natural attacks benefits from the amulet (and if you have 4 or more natural attacks, you are getting a huge benefit out of it).

Edit - judging by the responses I've gotten here, I'm going to stop working on this, as it is unlikely that it would get approved. I was shooting for a short, two feat chain, the first of which made Spiked Gauntlets into a special monk weapon (Razing Metal Fist Strike), and the second which let you substitute your unarmed strike damage for the gauntlet damage, while still benefitting from the gauntlet's enchantments and special material (Metal Fist Mastery). I was thinking of restricting it to Orcs and Orc-blooded races, as it seemed fairly appropriate for them.

 

[Infiniti2000]

See? I knew that if we talked long enough, you'd get around to answering my question.

Quite honestly, I thought my very first response answered that, but I guess it just needed rewording. No problem though, as you can tell I like to discuss the rules.

Edit - judging by the responses I've gotten here, I'm going to stop working on this, as it is unlikely that it would get approved. I was shooting for a short, two feat chain, the first of which made Spiked Gauntlets into a special monk weapon, and the second which let you substitute your unarmed strike damage for the gauntlet damage, while still benefitting from the gauntlet's enchantments and special material.

But that feat chain is exactly what you would need according to my interpretation. I'd personally switch the order because you'll get far more advantage that way and it makes more sense to me. Something like this (suggested houserule encased in the sblock):

[sblock] Gauntlet Strike [General]
Prerequisites
Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit
You may substitute your unarmed strike damage for the gauntlet damage while still benefitting from the gauntlet's enhancements and special materials.

Special
You must declare that you attack with your hands to gain the advantage of the gauntlets and therefore you must have at least one hand free.

Normal
When attacking with gauntlets, you do base 1d3 damage as a medium character, not your monk unarmed strike damage.

Armored Flurry [General]
Prerequisites
Improved Unarmed Strike, Gauntlet Strike, base attack bonus +3, monk.

Benefit
Attacking with gauntlets is treated as a monk weapon and thus may be used in a flurry of blows.

Normal
You cannot attack with gauntlets in a flurry of blows.[/sblock]