Gen Con Takes Stand For Inclusiveness

This rather breaks all my rules, in that I'm reporting on politics, and regional politics at that. That said, Gen Con, the hobby's largest American convention, intersects with this particular example, so it's hard to ignore; and this is an RPG news blog, after all. Plus, I agree with the sentiment, even if I'm doubtful about its actual effectiveness given the current contract. Gen Con has written to the local politician in its home city of Indianapolis, USA, threatening (kind of - they're contracted to stay there for five more years whether they like it or not) to consider moving elsewhere if a local law relating to businesses being able to refuse custom to same-sex couples is passed.

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This rather breaks all my rules, in that I'm reporting on politics, and regional politics at that. That said, Gen Con, the hobby's largest American convention, intersects with this particular example, so it's hard to ignore; and this is an RPG news blog, after all. Plus, I agree with the sentiment, even if I'm doubtful about its actual effectiveness given the current contract. Gen Con has written to the local politician in its home city of Indianapolis, USA, threatening (kind of - they're contracted to stay there for five more years whether they like it or not) to consider moving elsewhere if a local law relating to businesses being able to refuse custom to same-sex couples is passed.

With multiple recent articles in just the last week (Monte Cook Games & Thunderplains, Green Ronin's Blue Rose), the subject of inclusiveness is not one that anybody can afford to ignore. However, the vitriolic comments these topics give rise to make discussion on them difficult at best.

Here's the letter they wrote.

gencon_letter.jpg

 

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madrivi

First Post
The United States isn't Europe -- we don't throw people in jail for hate speech -- but we can throw folks out of our bars for verbally or physically assaulting other patrons.

Not really wanting to be a bore but do you realize that Europe is a Continent and politics are Country wise? I can say then that you in America (the continent) are all the same, and it is a big big World...
 

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Fralex

Explorer
Wow, you guys are pretty chill discussing controversial topics. This was pleasant to read through. I think people get more riled up talking about whether it's OK to houserule something the game probably ought to have included to begin with than they do talking about real-world political issues.
 

dwayne

Adventurer
Personally If you own the business you should have the right to refuse service to who ever you want, as its yours not the governments. Forcing ones views or life style on another is not a good thing as it makes those feel uncomfortable being forced to service or take care of those that they do not wish to. I for one would never go to a gay bar as a strait guy because I am not gay and have no interest in going. If you are gay than that's up to you and your choice and has no impact on me, forcing a business that's ran by people who find your life style or out look counter to theirs is an in infringement of there rights as well. So go some where else that's more acceptable to your out look and that way no toes are stepped on.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
Personally If you own the business you should have the right to refuse service to who ever you want, as its yours not the governments. Forcing ones views or life style on another is not a good thing as it makes those feel uncomfortable being forced to service or take care of those that they do not wish to. I for one would never go to a gay bar as a strait guy because I am not gay and have no interest in going. If you are gay than that's up to you and your choice and has no impact on me, forcing a business that's ran by people who find your life style or out look counter to theirs is an in infringement of there rights as well. So go some where else that's more acceptable to your out look and that way no toes are stepped on.

It's neither a choice, lifestyle, or outlook however. They have as much say as someone does in being black, white, male, female, etc.
 

NiClerigo

Adventurer
In my opinion, while Gen Con is entitled to political participation (amounting to activism in this case), and so is procedurally correct to protest, I disagree with the substance of the claims. I do not consider that there is discrimination in this case. For once, the proposed legislation would only operate in extreme cases of religious or conscience objection, and so would not entitle the rejection of people to access or contract services merely because of their sexual orientation, etc., unless there is a strong moral objection on the part of the business. As explained by many, this is practically related to homosexual marriage and the idea that people who disagree with it may feel forced to show consent to it contrary to their beliefs despite there being alternative service providers willing to do so. Moreover, discrimination is legally a differential treatment with no proportional bases of persons in the same or equiparable positions. However, as bodies as the European Court of Human Rights have said (Kopf v. Austria case), not accepting or endorsing homosexual marriage is allowed by human rights and international law, because objectively there are differences. We could go on, but in my opinion the problem is that tactics have been used in the US and UK to stigmatize and force people to change their beliefs. This is contrary to a pluralistic society, curiously what advocates of protests claim to endorse: homogeneous thinking is not pluralism, neither is trying to impose it and pretend to censor all who think differently. So, I think that the proposed legislation in no way risks a hypothetical rejection of attendants to Gen Con, and trying to silence and oblige others to accept your viewpoint (legitimate or not) runs contrary to freedom of expression and of opinion. That is my opinion, and I express it respectfully and aware of disagreements with it, but let it be said that I think that there is indeed a need to protect the rights of homosexual people, but that the risks of violation of their specific internationally-recognized rights is not at play in this case. Moreover, discussing political aspects related to RPGs is good in my opinion and permits the exchange of information, which enriches people. Yet, in previous discussions respectful discussions of the sort regarding other topics have been silenced, which is not consistent.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Actually, the law specifically states that the government (ie - the monopoly of violence) may not compel a business to deliver service to individuals in a nature contrary to their religious beliefs unless it proves it to be "is the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest."

Basically it keeps people from trolling religious businesses trying to sue them and fine them out of existence for not participating materially in same-sex, polygamous, or post-divorce weddings (state or private) if that's against their belief. Likewise a Jehovah's Witness who won't make cakes for a religious holidays, state holidays, or birthdays can't be held liable. Kosher and Halal delis aren't going to serve you pork either.

I think in a similar vein an atheist photograph who "doesn't do church weddings" likewise can't be compelled by force to choose between his beliefs and his livelihood.

At the same time, if provides for remedy so that someone is not forced to go on to the next town / county / state / whatever to get access to a service. You can have your wedding cake. You just can't use the state to shut down Shawna Taylor's bakery out of business because "she's a bigot!" and won't cater a same-sex wedding because she's Muslim when Joey Baldazzio's bakery across the street will do it without batting an eye-lash.

Marty Lund
Here's the problem with that: it won't work. It can't. These laws are riddled with legal, logical, and theological traps.

First of all, there are faiths out there that would LOVE to discriminate against others than gays. Christian Identity adherents would love to legally refuse service to non-white minorities of all kinds. Which wins out? The new state law that allows them to do so, or the federal laws that say it is unconstitutional? (I think we all know how that fight ends.)

On the flip side, believers of the Nation of Islam* may well try to use the law to discriminate against whites. Would NoI have that right, when CI wouldn't? Is it good law to protect the intolerance of one group while the other group's is not?

Second, opposition to laws like this will be strong, intelligent and vocal. Some of it will even be religiously literate. And no court will merely take the religious person's word for it that such discrimination is justified by their faith. There will be depositions at least, and a court case is probable.

Nearly every major faith in the world incorporates some form of The Golden Rule as a fundamental tenet. They may have exceptions, but mostly involving instances when the faith or members of it are under violent attack. IOW, self-preservation is a common exception.

Assuming that Christianity in its myriad forms is the major faith tradition in the USA, how does it do so?

Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

(Emphasis mine.)

The second greatest commandment in Christianity is the Golden Rule, restated.

This situation, however, is not a violent confrontation, so there is probably no loophole there.

It will be hard for anyone to take the witness stand and assert- with support from recognizable theological sources- that their faith prohibits things like making wedding cakes for gays while simultaneously staying true to The Golden Rule.

But let's say the witness is prepared.

That still puts a secular court judge in the position of making a legal ruling on what the actual doctrine of a faith is, and whether the person asserting protection under this kind of law genuinely believes their faith supports discrimination..

Not only does this get into the Golden Rule problem, it raises SERIOUS issues regarding the separation of church & state. Here is the government- in the form of the judiciary- defining religious belief & doctrine. And on a state by state basis.

On those public policy grounds alone, it is far more efficient and less fraught with legal peril to disallow religiously based discrimination instead of legitimizing it in the state codes of law.

Lastly, these laws will not prevent lawsuits, all it does is shape the augments within them. Forget constitutional arguments- just because there is some state law out there saying someone can legally discriminate does not mean that someone cannot still make a prima facie case that the discrimination was malicious, and thus, actionable as "Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress"...which carries those big jury awards that bankrupt businesses that those politicians so earnestly wish to protect.:erm:

The only way to prevent the lawsuits is to do what certain pols and satanists suggested (as I pointed out upthread): posting signs telling "Due to religious reasons, we refuse service to ________." While that may actually save the business from lawsuits, as the proponents well know, it won't necessarily save them from public opprobrium, boycotts, and an economic death spiral that will bankrupt them as surely as any lawsuit.

Hobby Lobby might be able to weather a storm like that, but Mom & Pop's Great Cake Shop? Probably not.




* a uniquely American interpretation of Islam that is generally regarded as a heresy by all the other branches.
 
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Mikaze

First Post
Personally If you own the business you should have the right to refuse service to who ever you want, as its yours not the governments. Forcing ones views or life style on another is not a good thing as it makes those feel uncomfortable being forced to service or take care of those that they do not wish to. I for one would never go to a gay bar as a strait guy because I am not gay and have no interest in going. If you are gay than that's up to you and your choice and has no impact on me, forcing a business that's ran by people who find your life style or out look counter to theirs is an in infringement of there rights as well. So go some where else that's more acceptable to your out look and that way no toes are stepped on.

Along with seconding Shemeska's point that orientation and gender identity are neither a lifestyle or a matter of choice, exactly how are LGBT folks forcing anything on others by simply wishing to be treated as equals. We aren't exactly recruiting, you know.

Is our merely existing too much of a burden for certain business owners?
 
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Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
I think this is a great move by GenCon, and I support it.

That is all from me.

/Maggan
 


ShadowDenizen

Explorer
Morrus, thanks for posting this. I know the importance of "the Grandma Rule", and I applaud you for making ENWorld a safe-space for gamers everywhere. And I hope we can dicuss this civilly, knowing everyone will have their own strongly-held opinions.

But sometimes (like in any gaming system) you have to know when to break the rules for a greater cause/purpose.

Personally speaking, I applaud Adrian Swartout (and Co.) for taking a stand for something they believe will benefit not just the gaming community, but potentially the entire state.
 

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