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Gen Con Takes Stand For Inclusiveness

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This rather breaks all my rules, in that I'm reporting on politics, and regional politics at that. That said, Gen Con, the hobby's largest American convention, intersects with this particular example, so it's hard to ignore; and this is an RPG news blog, after all. Plus, I agree with the sentiment, even if I'm doubtful about its actual effectiveness given the current contract. Gen Con has written to the local politician in its home city of Indianapolis, USA, threatening (kind of - they're contracted to stay there for five more years whether they like it or not) to consider moving elsewhere if a local law relating to businesses being able to refuse custom to same-sex couples is passed.

With multiple recent articles in just the last week (Monte Cook Games & Thunderplains, Green Ronin's Blue Rose), the subject of inclusiveness is not one that anybody can afford to ignore. However, the vitriolic comments these topics give rise to make discussion on them difficult at best.

Here's the letter they wrote.

gencon_letter.jpg

 

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My property. And frankly, it shouldn't have to be a religious reason. It's a "my property, my riles" principle.

Not enough.

As noted, your rights are already known to be limited in many ways. Your buildings must be up to code, even if only you live in them. Your must follow zoning regulations, health codes, and so on. You do *not* have unlimited rights.

So, why does *this particular* right get special treatment?
 

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I'm not going to fall for the trap you are laying here. There are always exceptions based on odd circumstances as I'm sure you are ready to point out.

To your specific examples, I absolutely should be able to take my kids to Chucky Cheese and not have to worry about "we don't serve your kind here."

Likewise, my kids should not have to deal with discrimination from a school because they have a transgender parent. What's more, a transgender child should not face discrimination at a school. Ever.
As has been my mantra ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. I'm walking away now you stoped listening long ago
 

I don't think you thought that through.

Say you drove across town to a friend's place to hang out, and the two of you decided you wanted to go out for a burger. And you are wearing a skirt.... You figure all transgender folks need to carry around a change of clothes at all times, just in case? And they are expected to know beforehand whether the establishment in question is going to discriminate against them, to know that they're going to have to change beforehand?

(And that's not including the fact that, even post-surgery, in some cases you can still tell, such that clothing *won't* hide that you are transgendered)

Why is it that Joe's religious beliefs must *always* trump Jane's gender identity? Why can't Joe just suck up and deal when Jane comes into the store, hm?

I understand that Joe believes, very deeply, in one interpretation of the meaning of a book.

I also understand that Jane believes, very deeply, that she is a woman. Jack believes, very deeply, that it is okay that he loves a man.

Why does Joe *always* get to put forth his beliefs, but Jack and Jane must hide theirs?

Riddle me that, GM. Riddle me that.

I'll answer that. Joe's beliefs trump Jane's because it is Joe's property. If this was Jane's store, it would be Joe who have to cope.
 

I said I was going to duck out and I really am going to try after this but I have to say something in response or it will irk me all night. Joe should not always get his way over Jane, but why should Jane always get her way over Joe? How about a scenario where Jane always got her way unless it conflicted with Joe's religious beliefs and both left it at that?

To my knowledge, Joe serving Jane at his place of business does not actually conflict with his religious beliefs. Unless you can point to a spot in the Bible that says, "It is unlawful for a business owner to have dealings with homosexuals or transgender people," it's just a case of, "These people gross me out, so I don't want them here!" Now, if Jane were to go into Joe's church or home and physically attempt to keep him from praying or observing some other such religious practice, that would indeed be a case where she was doing something that conflicted with Joe's religious beliefs. She would be kicked out and possibly arrested, and rightfully so.
 

You because those of US not on your side must be for discrimination...

That's not how you come out. At least not from where I'm standing.

You just seem bothered by same sex couples walking down the streets holding hands. That's not discrimination. It's not religious either by the way. It's just that you're not used to it.

As a side note, you would probably be more horrified if you saw a couple that was trying to have a baby while walking in a public parc with your kids. And as long as you're trying to have a baby, sex is 100% christian approved.
 

As has been my mantra ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. I'm walking away now you stoped listening long ago

Hey @GMforPowergamers, I'm not gonna speak for anybody else, but I have been reading all of your posts and considering them. Honestly, I'm going to say that one of the things I appreciate about your part in this conversation is that you are one of the few people supporters of the law in this thread who is openly discussing his own personal feelings in regard to lgbtq people. You're not defending a hypothetical Bob's right to hold hypothetical discriminatory beliefs. You're defending your right to have those beliefs, and you're arguing that you should have the right to not be confronted with folks who make you uncomfortable in challenging those beliefs.

Now, I'm also going to say that I wholeheartedly disagree that you have the right to not be uncomfortable in this way. You don't get to have a place you go, in public, where you don't have to be around gay people, trans people, or any other general group of people.

But the fact that you are uncomfortable with other people doesn't, in of itself, make you a bad person. Not that I'm in any position to judge you, but that's my take on it, at least. I know tons of folks who believe very strongly in tolerance, but also have their own moments of irrational fear and discomfort towards people who are different from them. I'll count myself as one of those people, though I work really hard to overcome it.

The problem is when you become intransigent about that fear, and you use that fear to justify actions against other people. Because that fear, that discomfort, that really is your problem. Even if it's something that is mandated to you by your religion. My religion is very strictly pacifist, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be anything but empathetic and open to folks in the armed services, and if I get the willies every time I ride on an airplane next to a dude in fatigues, that's not me exercising my freedom of religion. That's me having a human problem that I need to work through.

I'm just one stranger on the internet talking to another stranger on the internet, giving some unsolicited advice, but I just want to say, that I've been reading and thinking about what you've written up here a bunch in the last 24-ish hours.

EDIT:
Please don't read the above as me calling you homophobic or transphobic or anything of the sort. I'm not trying to read anything into what you've written beyond what you've actually written. You've acknowledged a discomfort around trans people, but I'm not going to speak for you as to just how great that discomfort is. Again, I really strongly disagree with a lot of what you've said in this thread, but I also just appreciate that you're being open about your own personal experiences.
 
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That's not how you come out. At least not from where I'm standing.

You just seem bothered by same sex couples walking down the streets holding hands. That's not discrimination. It's not religious either by the way. It's just that you're not used to it.

As a side note, you would probably be more horrified if you saw a couple that was trying to have a baby while walking in a public parc with your kids. And as long as you're trying to have a baby, sex is 100% christian approved.

I don't care who holds hands or kisses and I have friends who are bi and trans... I just understand that some people have objevtiins.

I would object to anyone being closer then a pg movie allows for in front of my 6 year old niece or 8 year old nephew
 

I said I was going to duck out and I really am going to try after this but I have to say something in response or it will irk me all night. Joe should not always get his way over Jane, but why should Jane always get her way over Joe? How about a scenario where Jane always got her way unless it conflicted with Joe's religious beliefs and both left it at that?

Oh, this one is simple.

Let us consider all beliefs being equal. That leaves us at a tie, an impasse.

So, we look beyond belief. As far as anyone can see, Joe suffers no actual measurable harm by serving Jane or Jack.

However, history *clearly* shows that Jane and Jack suffer measurable harm if Joe and others like him are allowed to discriminate against them.

This is something some of you keep skipping over because of the word "religion". We have already seen what happens when discrimination on the basis of "what you are" is allowed. This is well documented, and we still suffer the consequences today. You seem to be arguing that these consequences are okay, in the name of the belief of someone who isn't harmed.
 
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First of all, suggesting that one's gender or sexuality is a "lifestyle choice" is extremely offensive. Second, on the one hand you applaud a bill that gives businesses the right to run their business the way they see fit, but then with the other hand deride GENCON as "self-righteous scumbags" for exercising their right to run their business the way they see fit.

I find being forced to accept gender as something that is selectable is offensive. Then again, I find being forced to do just about anything is offensive and plant my heels at the mere notion of being forced to do anything. But I digress provided that my made up Gender that others are forced to accept is "Sexual Tyrannosaur" (preferred gender pronoun is "MF-ing Godzilla" btw for those that are interested). I could live with that :)

Indeed, Gencon is free to run their business as they see fit. This does not change my opinion of Gencon (and Evil Hat, can't forget them) for being self righteous scumbags for trying to prevent the people of a state from making their own decisions on what laws to live under by threatening to take their ball and go elsewhere. Don't try to play moral high ground when one is using large purses to force one facet of morality on business people or consumers. Business that choose not to do business with ppl of various lifestyle choices aren't forcing that person to conform to do business with them. Gencon is trying to force businesses to conform to it's worldview via force of law being influenced.
 

And that's where the issue is confused. When someone can not refuse to participate in someone else's gay or straight marriage ceremony because it violates their religious beliefs - be they anyone from an Orthodox Jew refusing to materially participate in a same-sex wedding or an Atheist refusing to participate in a religious wedding - without being deprived of their livelihood (their business) by the state then we aren't living in a free society.

No one is being deprived of their livelihood. What is being restricted is one aspect of how they conduct it. Laws against discrimination are just like regulations that tell you how much tax you pay, minimum wages, control how you dispose of hazardous waste, how many parking spaces and bathrooms you must have, whether yr employees must be bonded, what annual inspections and insurance premiums you pay, whether you need to have a state license to be in that business. Your legally enforced conformity to them is part of the cost you pay for having a business open to the public.

Under American law, the general rule is that, if you are going to have a business open to the general public, you do not have the right to discriminate merely based on a customer's class. Once you start saying "everybody but ________ general class of persons is welcome", you run afoul of our system of laws.

The Orthodox Rabbi can chose not to perform a Jewish same sex wedding legally because his faith does not recognize the sanctity of such ceremonies. He CANNOT make the same distinction if he is open to performing the same ceremonies for non-Jews.

And an Atheist empowered to perform a wedding would be similarly restricted.

IOW, the businessman's choice is:

1) have a business open to the public and don't discriminate at all
2) have a private business and provide services ONLY to an extremely narrow clientele.

The law in question limits what the government can do.

...in a way that enshrines the beliefs of a certain set of religious persons into law, in violation of the Establishment Clause.

The law is designed so that if subsets of the state- like a county or city- decide to add non-discrimination laws, they cannot. Even if such measures had 100% approval.

The government can only step in to mediate when the conflict between someone's religious beliefs ("I won't do X") and another's commercial interests ("I want you to do X for me") reaches the point where someone trying to acquire a good or service is being substantively pushed out of a market. If nobody in town will photograph your wedding because its two men or two women you have a case for government intervention under that law. If the 3 photographers in town will take the business then you can't use the court system to troll the 1 old church lady who won't because "she's a bigot."
When the courts told the all-white Krewes of NOLA to integrate or stop parading, most stopped parading.

When the KKK had some members try to join the Krewe of Zulu- the first, biggest and still one of the only Krewes founded by blacks- they were admitted. (They don't participate much, though.)

When people try and employ law as a crude bludgeon to punish people who disagree with them, they aren't supporting Liberty but rather the exact opposite. There is a huge difference between the function of law that a hate-group like HRC wants (the ability to specifically target and punish their "enemies" for wrong-think in court) and the protections that the law is actually supposed to provide (the ability to find remedy so consumers aren't denied access to the marketplace).
If you want to do business with the public, you have to conform your business to the laws of the land.

If someone wants to make it a policy that their bar doesn't serve gays or straights or whatever craziness they want to come up with in this day and age they'll just get boycotted and market competitors will gain the benefit. Nobody is going to lose access to the market, and if they do the law gives them redress.

See my previous posts about the inefficiency and slowness of depending on politicians and the invisible hand in the arena of civil rights.

What the HRC is worried about is that without a government bludgeon they may not be able to shut down everyone they hate. The bakery of a lady who is willing to sell anybody of any sexual preference a birthday cake, but simply will not cater a same-sex wedding because such a thing is forbidden in her faith and sends the business across the street won't be fined or sued.

In what religious text is it forbidden to do business with gays? That it is OK to cherrypick which of your services you will offer them? How is this kind of discrimination justified to override that faith's version of The Golden Rule?

(Dating sites already lost on those grounds, you know.)
 

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