Genders - What's the difference?

Y'know, it's funny. WOTC got pasted for suggesting that halflings be river dwelling folk with dreadlocks. Now, apparently, we're supposed to accept the idea that halflings are built like chimpanzees and are actually much stronger than their size and pretty much every bit of flavour text would indicate.

Meh. Sorry for bringing it up. But, the idea that gender differences are somehow "realistic" because halflings are built like chimpanzees seems rather strange to me.

Back to my other point though, why do these things have to be written into the rules and not left up to the players?
 

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So GMs can stop players from having badwrongfun?

That's it exactly! As a tyrannical GM, I find it's best to oppress my players (and those at other tables, as I've obviously tried to do in this thread!) by making them conform to what I like!

I mean, what else could it be? It's not like I ever say "play what you like" or anything.

But hey, play what you like.
 

But, JamesonCourage, that's the point. If you hardwire this into the system, then you have to accept that you are going to alienate some players. Not everyone is going to agree with the idea that the system should differentiate between men and women mechanically - obviously.

OTOH, if you hand it entirely to the players, and not code it into the system, then no one could possibly be offended. Unless, of course, someone is offended by someone else's character generation decisions, but, that's a bit of a stretch. If someone is bothered because I put a 14 strength in my female character because I think I shouldn't be as strong as Conan, well, my response would be, "it's my character, I can do whatever I want."

OTOH, it's not the DM's character. Why is the DM telling me what I should play?
 

It depends.

1. Is it relevant to the genre?
2. Is it fun?
3. Can it be represented in the system at the level of detail provided?

It's pretty obvious to me why D&D 3e had no sex-based differences for characters.

1. It wasn't relevant, as the published settings were largely egalitarian to one degree or another.
2. It was designed to be a game with wide appeal, so why restrict options? Even if female Str 18 barbarians are in theory more rare, should there be a price paid for being that rarity, or should you get the same shakes as any other Str 18 barbarian?
3. D&D 3e doesn't have enough detail to accurately reflect real-world differences very well, much less modern genre fantasy where Red Sonja is a She-Devil with a Sword. Relative to each other, in D&D terms, males would probably rate +1 Strength, with an additional +2 for lifting purposes only, +1 to the Intimidate skill, and get +1 to hit and damage with thrown weapons, while females would probably rate +1 Constitution, +1 to the Sense Motive skill, and +1 on Tumble checks. At most. You can't justify even a two point spread on any Ability Score, or a +2 on a skill. GURPS does only slightly better.

In the real world, men and women are very similar in abilities. They have virtually the same intelligence, and except in very specific cognitive tasks that do not resemble most real-world tasks, virtually interchangeable specific cognitive skills. Compared to most animals, males and females are similarly sized, although men do have considerably more muscle in their arms. Women are a little more flexible. Men tend to be less empathic, women more, although that is highly context dependent; men also tend to be higher status and women lower, which also affects empathy.

There are basically two areas where men excel beyond what even the most accomplished women can do. First, there are astoundingly more male mathematicians, virtually all of whom do their best work in their 20s, rarely even into their 30s, suggesting that hightly theoretical math involves some of those very specific cognitive tasks I was mentioning. Second, men can throw things. Due to a combination of wider shoulders, more powerful arms, a different center of balance, and perhaps some motor neuron differences (which may be learned difference), even a fairly typical man can throw a baseball better than all but the very best women. Even things like weight-lifting do not evince a huge divide; while men are unquestionably stronger to a very significant degree, the actual amount of difference is not huge. Strong women are often stronger than only slightly strong men. On the other side, if you want to survive long periods of physical stress, perhaps involving huge caloric losses, you want a woman. Women also retain a lot of flexibility in their bodies, which men lose rapidly even as they get into their teens.

Things like math v. science, thinking v. feeling, multi-tasking, etc..... whatever you heard, in actuality, women and men are more alike than different. Men and women who are good at, say, aeronautics perform more similarly to each other than do a male aeronauticist and a male truck driver, at tasks of mathematics, spatial geometry. etc.

Now, in fiction, differences may be exaggerated... or erased (classically, the "tender" woman who cannot survive hardship, despite having birthed untold generations of humans in the wilderness). If you want to simulate THAT, look closely at the actual game differences you want to make.

How did you come by the differences in strength? Do you weight lift or keep up with weight lifting?

Men are nearly 40% stronger than women in the upper body. The RAW bench press record for a superheavyweight female with no shirt is around 400 lbs. For a male around 700 lbs.

And about 30% stronger in the legs.

Even extremely large females cannot attain the mass and power of a male of equal height.

And you are suggesting constitution superiority by females. They do have pretty much equal muscular endurance, especially with the legs. They still can't compete in marathons and endurance competitions with males.

Even extraordinary female athletes like Venus and Serena Williams had trouble competing against top 200 male tennis players. Serve speed for the female is far lower for a strong female like Serena or Venus and a top 200 male.


You seem to implying that male versus female physical superiority isn't that great. But that isn't true. Males are physically superior to females by such a extraordinary margin that they can't even fairly compete against each other in physical activities. Even such activities as tennis and golf which only require moderate physical power and strength.

In the violent sports like football, rugby, and boxing, they have virtually no chance of competing against a male unless he is very inferior male.

So I'm not sure why you think a +1 ability score is sufficient to show that level of physical dominance.

In fact, the only notable female warrior group in history is the Amazons. And they were not proven to exist and their empire is unknown. There have been some notable female warriors in history such as Mathilda a German warrior queen and Joan of Arc. But neither was known for their individual fighting ability being greater than a males, rather than they were known for extraordinary leadership or tactical acumen.

I'm not encouraging incorporating physical differences in a game. No real need for it. We're playing Red Sonja more than real world history. So I see no need to incorporate such differences.


But you are very mistaken assuming male physical dominance is minor. Male physical dominance and aggression is the entire reason why for all of human history males have dominated every society, with rare exception, in the entire world. I often hear the socialization process was the reason. That is bunk because the socialization process would have never occurred if at any point in human history females were equal physically to males and had similar aggression.

It's also been a negative and may be why male aggression is being bred out of males. We males start 99% of wars, we do most murders, serial killing, random acts of violence, rapes, and physical child abuse and the like. There is a price to pay for the way we are physically built. It does affect the male mentality both positively and negatively. You would have a very difficult time in a fantasy world integrating all the ways females and males are different.

At the end of the day, it's fantasy. So who cares. I have males like that playing a female character that smacks people down because it's fun to their imagination. They certainly don't want to be limited because someone wants to simulate real world differences between males and females. I don't think in a game that would go too well.

It would be like trying to integrate the physical differences between African, European, and Asian males. Sure, there are some differences, smaller differences than between men and women, but they still exist and are medically documented. But why worry about it. It's a fantasy game.
 

I'm like a moth to the flame...

But, JamesonCourage, that's the point. If you hardwire this into the system, then you have to accept that you are going to alienate some players. Not everyone is going to agree with the idea that the system should differentiate between men and women mechanically - obviously.

You might offend someone is not a terribly huge objection. In addition to the fact that the objection goes away if we are speaking of 'my table', you can't limit yourself to what hangs people up. Should I remove the 'Androgynous' trait because someone might be offended by it? How about removing clerics? How about removing the option to play evil characters? Lots of things are potentially offensive.

OTOH, if you hand it entirely to the players, and not code it into the system, then no one could possibly be offended.

Err... no. Again, someone can always be offended about something. But I'm more interested in the backwards logic you are expressing here. Stop and think about this a second; you don't call options restrictions when they apply to any other area of the game. But in this one situation an option suddenly becomes a restriction in your vocabulary.

Consider if I took away the option to use racial templates because elves offend some people. If someone wanted to play an elf they could always choose to have higher dex and lower con if they wanted right? Would that give you more options? What if I took away feats and traits? What if I took away skill focus and said, "Just put max ranks in the skill if you want to indicate high skill." Would you describe removing these aspects of character design from the game as the DM increasing player flexibility? Would you tell me that the only reason to allow feats, traits, and races in the game was to prevent players from having badwrongfun? Would you describe an elf having modifiers of +2 to Dex and -2 to Con as the DM "telling you what you should play"?

Really?

Plus imagine for a second that we had a gaming table were gender options were already available. Do you think someone would be offended if they were taken away?

In short, I understand that this is a touchy subject, but you please stop letting it warp your logic so that up is down and front is back and reducing options is increasing freedom?

And another thing....

Meh. Sorry for bringing it up. But, the idea that gender differences are somehow "realistic" because halflings are built like chimpanzees seems rather strange to me.

You were the one that claimed that since halflings somehow that showed that gender differences weren't realistic. You even got upset that after a page or two that no one had yet answered your assertion about the realism of no gender differences because halflings only had a -2 strength penalty. So when I try to show that your red herring is a red herring and is irrelevent, now you are going to stop taking credit for your red herring and blame me for answering your halfling challenge? That's a big switch.

Gender differences are realistic because they are real. That's the end of it. Whether or not we want to capture that realism may very from table to table, game to game, and setting to setting is entirely another matter. I can completely understand if you don't want to do that.
 

I don't care to game with people who are offended by androgyny. I do see a downside, personally and for the gaming community, with offending... women. Many, if not most, geek women.
 


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