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General Discussion Thread IX

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I wouldn't touch living FR with a 10 foot pole ;)

It's sorta the same group, but sorta not. RA isn't in LEW as a judge, I'm a new judge here too, but will be a character judge there. The big think is that most of the same people are interested in both things, and those that are judges here have better references because they have past experience.

Given LEW and LE are both player run, PC has no control on that issue. However, Eberron has a different playing style than LEW, and, I know I'm working on moving towards allowing more WoTC books into LE, which won't happen in LEW.

Also, play style is usually dictated more by the DM than the judge. Judges have very little influence other than what gets let into the world in the first place. Once it's there, it's players and GMs who make most of the magic happen.

Don't worry, there won't be a full cross staffing from LEW and LE. And this has already been discussed by the judges.
 

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I would like to GM an adventure and have written up my proposal. But do I need to email it to all 10 judges listed?
 

Yeap, but if you have two ok to go and nobody else says no, it is generally good to go. So the more poeple you email it, the most likely you'll be able to start your adventure soon.
 

Fenris said:
I would like to GM an adventure and have written up my proposal. But do I need to email it to all 10 judges listed?

You should definitely email all of us, preferably copying the same message to us. After we get a chance to read it, we may want to discuss it, and the easiest way to do that is to reply-all if we're all on the header.
 

I'll freely admit to being so sucked into my new eberron book, and keeping up with stuff that i've completely ignored all this deity stuff. This will continue, unfortunately, as I'll be going on vacaiton tomorrow and doing very little posting for the next week and a half.
 

Alternate LIving Communities

OK here is a caveat before people overreact. I love LEW – I think the judges are fair and the current leadership does a great job running the community. So this is not directed at anyone in particular nor is it an attack.

I just have some concerns about the centralization of power over the current gaming community with a few select people. Also the view that they are somehow uniquely qualified for this because they have experience is a bunch of BS.

Before, they were just like the rest of us. Saying that hey are the only ones who can now figure out how to successfully run such a community from he ground up (especially since there is a group to turn to for help) without them is, to me, rather an arrogant statement.

Also, the philosophy that the current judges of LEW are somehow uniquely more qualified than anyone else who plays or Dams D&D on a regular basis to set policy, rules or make approvals or judgments effecting the community or tone of the game more than anyone else who has been playing the game since its genesis is wrong. .

I say they are just a bunch of good guys who worked out how to make a place for us all to play on LEW, asked for the space and got the support from someone here at ENW to get it.

Think about it, how’d they majority of them become judges. They laid he framework for the site and through that work are entitled to a lot of say in how their creation develops and this is how it should be BTW. If you lay the framework you would have say. Not all that different than any group of people making any club for that matter. I got to say as I have observed in most clubs the general membership gets a vote on a lot of the decisions made especially about the leadership. (I know we can speak on any topic but without a vote it’s almost useless IMO.)

However, what’s the process for selecting the judges who came after them? It’s voted on by only the current judges themselves. The general membership has no say and will never therefore have a real say in the business of the rules.

There is no reason to impugn anyone’s integrity (it’s been all good here so far) but that system is just asking for the perception that it is little more than a popularity contest. If you agree with the current party line and they like you they might make you a judge if not…well you get it. It’s probably just perception but that is the very thing that most organizations have checks and balances in the first place.

Not so much because impropriety is such a frequent thing but that them membership has no reason to believe it might be happening. I say there should be some voting for judges by the community at large. It was proposed and shot summarily down.

Which brings me to another huge issue with me, should that small elite group also have say over who controls all the living environments on ENW. This part makes me say hummmm…..

Don't worry, there won't be a full cross staffing from LEW and LE. And this has already been discussed by the judges.

This is saying to me that the current judges for the LEW project have already discussed and divided up the pieces of the LEB pie for one and latter the Living FR pie and if not themselves running it they will be the arbiters of who will run it. Who will they allow a piece? What are the criteria and why are they even choosing they already have their community. This is a different one and should be well, different not influenced by the same people

This I say is too much centralization of authority with so few people. I say the rule should be one judge position for one living community period. That way the communities are indeed unique not influenced by the same people over and over. Now that I’ll caveat with unless no one else steps up to take parts of the development of the world then it can be opened up.

Now here is the question I should have asked last time.

I guess I wasn’t asking the right question. When all these uniquely qualified Judges were just a bunch of people who played D&D and DM’d games at home like the rest of us where did they get the forum room to make LEW.

By that I mean who granted the forum space and accounts for them to make a living campaign at all. Because I think a new fresh set of people might be a better choice for an alternate living game with perhaps a different set of rules than the current judges would allow.

That’s why I was asking if I talked to PC or who about it.

Again, in closing, I love LEW, think it’s a great place but would like to do a living community here with an entirely different feel and tone - choices not limitations. I will ask for the help of and most likely will use a lot of the lessons learned on LEW cause why reinvent the wheel.

Another issue is that being a judge and playing in the community is a lot different than just playing in a community. As a judge one’s personal character proposals like feats and spells have a tendency to get a little more of a quick and serious look probably from the other judges out of professional courtesy (it’s totally natural and ok with me). Same with other things you are a judge and because of it (even if you don’t ask and never would) people will treat you differently.

I think that one judge position in one living community is plenty. Perhaps being a player in one community would do some good for the judges to make them remember how hard and frustrating it is to get those character special feats and other proposals approved. When you are the judge you can influence the game when not you are at someone else’s mercy. That would go a long way towards all the communities working together and keeping the judge’s heads in the right place so they remember where they came from.
 



DerHauptman said:
This is saying to me that the current judges for the LEW project have already discussed and divided up the pieces of the LEB pie for one and latter the Living FR pie and if not themselves running it they will be the arbiters of who will run it.

Really? I'm a LEW judge, and nobody mentioned either of the other projects to me.

DerHauptman said:
This I say is too much centralization of authority with so few people. I say the rule should be one judge position for one living community period. That way the communities are indeed unique not influenced by the same people over and over.

Sounds fair -- except that when I consider who'd be a good judge for LEW, I don't want to be restricted by other projects the person might be involved in. I have no interest in those other games, just LEW. So I want to be able to evaluate potential judges based on their activities in LEW alone.

The other projects you mention are not offshoots of LEW. Their conception and structure might have been influenced by LEW, but they are separate projects. As such, when considering what works for each one, the players involved should consider it in isolation. So I would not support any rule that limited a person's involvement in one such project based on their involvement in others.

Your other suggestion -- to have new judges elected democratically -- does have some merit; I'm not right now persuaded for or against, but it is an idea worth considering.
 
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No, I think he thinks you're worrying too much. Here's why I think that:

My story: I hadn't played any version of D20 for some time, and picked up the rule books. I was looking for ideas on how the rules fit together and how the new version differed from previous editions of the game. Web surfing, I stumbled across LEW, which was about 9 months old at the time. I thought, "Wow, what a neat idea! Your characters don't go into limbo every few months because a DM gets tired of running a game...and unlike a MMORG, it's not just an extended chat session with kewl graphics of monsters and stuff.

So I dove in, with the intent of playing as well as I could..."well" defined by myself as running my character(s) as effectively as I could, without betraying what I believed to be that character's concept and personality. I was a little awed by some of the threads I'd read through, which contained page after page after page of player-written dialogue. I thought it was one hella group creative effort, and tried to contribute as I could.

I didn't really care about the administrative aspects of LEW, mainly because it worked well enough that it didn't cause any problems for me as a player. I also didn't pick up on any "there are enough jerks here to make it unpleasant at times" vibe. Good enough for me!

I felt there was a hole in the persistant world aspect of LEW, namely that there wasn't enough glue providing consistancy between adventures. In my first adventure, the party passed by what I thought was a pretty neat adventure site several times. But in that same character's second adventure, the same site was changed by the DM. It's not that he thought the other DM's version stunk or something, rather that he was simply ignorant that someone else had used that location and made up his own version in his ignorance. So, I took it upon myself to start cataloging locations in LEW, and trying to sort through the inconsistancies.

I played the first character and no other for about 9 months, then generated my second character. I played the two of them together for about 9 more months, and was invited to become a judge. Just like that, and that was about 6 months ago. Honestly, I don't think I brought anything more to the table than obvious proof that I was going to stick around LEW for at least a little while, a proven desire to improve on the persistant world aspect of it, and reasonable writing skill. I'm certainly not any sort of expert on the D20 system post 3.0, as any of the other judges can attest. And looking at the people who became judges after me, I don't think it was any different...what they all had in common was an ability and desire to contribute, nothing more, nothing less. Like you said, it's just a bunch of good guys who worked out a place to play. By now, most of them weren't around for LEW's beginning, and the founder pretty much isn't seen here.

So, my point is, although on paper what's evolved so far looks like a blueprint for a dictatorial aristocracy, in practice it has been anything but. The only person I know who specifically volunteered to become a judge was made one in fairly short order. Although my opinion is that we have enough judges right now, we had a shortage not very long ago, and may well have one again soon. If anything, the problem has been that there haven't been enough people who wanted to put in some extra effort, as opposed to a surplus of willing people who've been shut out by some clique.

I also watched the formation of Living Supers. As soon as it was made a sub-forum of this one, I started lurking. The decision to have a number of judges and the selection of those judges was pretty easy-going, if you ask me. There's some overlap with here, but not much. No one complains here, no one complains there. (Well, ok, I guess you count as a complainant, if your complaint that there are too many people who are judges in more than one persistant world also extends to LS. But you'd be the only one.)

I agree that it could be a problem, but my experience here is that it definitely isn't one yet. And this is coming from a guy who is a judge on one, and only one persistant world, but who plays in more than one (and in one where at least one of the judges has multiple judgeships). My advice to you is that if this is really a concern, go to one of the worlds that is just forming and volunteer to judge. You might be surprised at the result.
 

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