General Discussion Thread IX

[Bront]

OK here is a caveat before people overreact. I love LEW – I think the judges are fair and the current leadership does a great job running the community. So this is not directed at anyone in particular nor is it an attack.

I just have some concerns about the centralization of power over the current gaming community with a few select people. Also the view that they are somehow uniquely qualified for this because they have experience is a bunch of BS.

Before, they were just like the rest of us. Saying that hey are the only ones who can now figure out how to successfully run such a community from he ground up (especially since there is a group to turn to for help) without them is, to me, rather an arrogant statement.

The current judges, old and new, have done a very good job at addressing the concerns of the players of LEW. I've been a judge for about 2 months now, and while I was the Tavern coordinator before, that basicly ammounted to being the GM of the Tavern thread. However, I had made several proposals before I was apointed Judge that had passed in some measure or other. I had also raised several specific concerns that were addressed, mostly by pointing out that they were non-issues and had been ruled over already.

Also, the philosophy that the current judges of LEW are somehow uniquely more qualified than anyone else who plays or Dams D&D on a regular basis to set policy, rules or make approvals or judgments effecting the community or tone of the game more than anyone else who has been playing the game since its genesis is wrong. .

I say they are just a bunch of good guys who worked out how to make a place for us all to play on LEW, asked for the space and got the support from someone here at ENW to get it.

Think about it, how’d they majority of them become judges. They laid he framework for the site and through that work are entitled to a lot of say in how their creation develops and this is how it should be BTW. If you lay the framework you would have say. Not all that different than any group of people making any club for that matter. I got to say as I have observed in most clubs the general membership gets a vote on a lot of the decisions made especially about the leadership. (I know we can speak on any topic but without a vote it’s almost useless IMO.)

No such assumption has been made directly, only that the judges are the best represintitives and have proven they can remain impartial and make solid decisions and are even willing to disagree without letting it get in the way of the fun.

I didn't become a judge because of laying any framework, it was from not only offering my services (almost a year ago), and I think showing a comitment to bringing interesting and different things into LEW. I have commented on proposals that weren't mine, in an attempt to help things pass, and much of the material I have proposed is fairly useless to my characters, but fun stuff in general. And I'm sure a fairly solid posting record helps as well. And, finaly, I think that I've shown I'm fairly well aware of potential balance issues among powers, which is important.

Not sure on Erekose, the other new judge, but I would guess more of the same. There are more judges than active judges, and some of the origional founders have moved on as well, but LEW has maintained an excelent set of judges, mostly nominated by other judges.

El Jefe is the only other judge I've seen become a judge since I was here, and he's been involved for a while, and was doing his compilation thread on his own recognicance.

However, what’s the process for selecting the judges who came after them? It’s voted on by only the current judges themselves. The general membership has no say and will never therefore have a real say in the business of the rules.

There is no reason to impugn anyone’s integrity (it’s been all good here so far) but that system is just asking for the perception that it is little more than a popularity contest. If you agree with the current party line and they like you they might make you a judge if not…well you get it. It’s probably just perception but that is the very thing that most organizations have checks and balances in the first place.

Not so much because impropriety is such a frequent thing but that them membership has no reason to believe it might be happening. I say there should be some voting for judges by the community at large. It was proposed and shot summarily down.

That's not true. The judges are the voice of the players, and come from the players, and are the players. Their voices are varied, and I think they have a good idea of who deserves to be the next set of judges.

Living Supers had a public vote when it started, and from the 5 judges that were elected, 3 remain less than 1 year later, and there was some internal conflict that almost caused LS to disolve before it ever actualy got moving.

Public input is great, but I would generaly not advise allowing for a public "Vote for the next judge". If you want to send input on potential new judges, or offer to be one yourself, the best thing to do is e-mail a judge or more, and tell them.

Which brings me to another huge issue with me, should that small elite group also have say over who controls all the living environments on ENW. This part makes me say hummmm…..

This is saying to me that the current judges for the LEW project have already discussed and divided up the pieces of the LEB pie for one and latter the Living FR pie and if not themselves running it they will be the arbiters of who will run it. Who will they allow a piece? What are the criteria and why are they even choosing they already have their community. This is a different one and should be well, different not influenced by the same people

Actualy, what that was refering to, is that in a discussion (KU, RA, and myself), we were discussing potential additional judges, and mentioned that one of the LEW judges might not have the time to be a judge for both, and eliminated him as a potential candidate initialy. Of couse, since he didn't volunteer, that made it easier as well. Also, RA is not an LEW judge, which is 1 out of 3. However, KO suggested the idea, so was grandfathered in, and I offered a lot of input which is why KO chose me as the other judge (besides Rystil). Chances are, there will be some overlap, but not all.

This I say is too much centralization of authority with so few people. I say the rule should be one judge position for one living community period. That way the communities are indeed unique not influenced by the same people over and over. Now that I’ll caveat with unless no one else steps up to take parts of the development of the world then it can be opened up.

LEW, LEB, and LS are in no way affiliated with each other (Dispite LS being under the LEW header on the boards), other than they may share the same player and GM base, in Enworld. And as such, the sharing of ideas will be only natural. I think you're worrying too much, and giving the Judges too much credit.

Now here is the question I should have asked last time.

I guess I wasn’t asking the right question. When all these uniquely qualified Judges were just a bunch of people who played D&D and DM’d games at home like the rest of us where did they get the forum room to make LEW.

By that I mean who granted the forum space and accounts for them to make a living campaign at all. Because I think a new fresh set of people might be a better choice for an alternate living game with perhaps a different set of rules than the current judges would allow.

That’s why I was asking if I talked to PC or who about it.

I can't speak for LEW, but for LS, I simply pestered the admins in the Meta forum till they caved. Er.. I asked politely and once I got enough momentum, they were nice enought to grant the space. I still wish it wasn't under LEW though, as I think that deturs some people.

Again, in closing, I love LEW, think it’s a great place but would like to do a living community here with an entirely different feel and tone - choices not limitations. I will ask for the help of and most likely will use a lot of the lessons learned on LEW cause why reinvent the wheel.

Another issue is that being a judge and playing in the community is a lot different than just playing in a community. As a judge one’s personal character proposals like feats and spells have a tendency to get a little more of a quick and serious look probably from the other judges out of professional courtesy (it’s totally natural and ok with me). Same with other things you are a judge and because of it (even if you don’t ask and never would) people will treat you differently.

I think that one judge position in one living community is plenty. Perhaps being a player in one community would do some good for the judges to make them remember how hard and frustrating it is to get those character special feats and other proposals approved. When you are the judge you can influence the game when not you are at someone else’s mercy. That would go a long way towards all the communities working together and keeping the judge’s heads in the right place so they remember where they came from.

Actualy, the only reason my Deity proposals are going quick is because we've been discussing them in a different thread, and I then proposed what was lacking. Otherwise, my proposals have moved perhaps a little faster than others, but that's because I have been providing feedback to questions from the judges, and make noise about them and that stems from before I was a judge (I've not had anything I've proposed since I was a judge pass beyond a Deity yet, which actualy means they're going slower).

As a GM, I don't give any mind to who's a judge and who's not. Heck, KO's character seems to have finaly been the second PC killed, the first one having been reincarnated (Who, I believe, was also a judge). If you think we give more credance to the concerns of a judge, then you're questioning the impartiality of a judge.

If you want to start your own living comunity, then feel free to try. My guess is that if it's just core+ like LEW, you'll have a harder time because LEW is already here. Otherwise, if it's like a Living FR, you might get some support, and probably from different people than you would get in LEW (much like LEB seems to have a different player base to some extent).

If you think that it's an issue of getting stuff approved that keeps us judges, perhaps you shoud look again. Read the rules thread. Remember, there is 1 item in there that passed since I was a judge. Now count my approvals. Also, Sparky wrote a number of things, and he's never been a judge. There are a lot of things in there that were written, proposed, and accepted by non-judges. I know I propose because I have an idea that I think will be good for the world. My Seeker of the Elemental Song was actualy for something else, and when I was done, I said "This actualy could be good for LEW", and proposed it here. And now it's been refined into a fine PrC that has several people excited (Well, at least one that I know of). I certaintly have no intention of playing it in LEW. Another example would be Ashinar's spells. Those were proposals for about 6 months if I remember right, and that was something for KO's character.

Basicly, these living campaigns aren't conspiracies to keep some players from doing things they want while the judges get whatever they want. Limiting people to judge only one keeps out potentialy dedicated judges who are good at what they do. remember, a Living Judge plays the part of a GM in most home campaigns, ultimately deciding on what is allowed in the world to keep the game going and balance it for all so that everyone can simply enjoy things.

 

[DerHauptman]

At least my tone was not lost and thats cool, I don't want anyone to think I am unhappy with LEW and I don't respect what's been done here. On the contrary I do respect it that is why I care. If I didn't I'd just blow off my concern.


Orsal, I am encouraged by your thoughts as last time I even suggested the players had some say in what decisions were made or who the judges were - it was summarily dismissed as folly or near heresy. The reasons varied from thoughts to to the effect that the players don't know what is good for the community, that they would screw just things up, to they couldn't be trusted to take the good of them many over the good for themselves. Made me seethe with irritation.

BOSS, I appreciate the background and it confirms my suspicion as to how the project took shape. I appreciate the work you have done (as well as the others) and thank you for the place to play. I'm military and down range so I get to play primarily on line. Well, we have a group here but the nature of our specific mission is erratic and we don't play like we'd like to. I am not so concerned with me becoming a judge as much as the appearance that being one is sort of cliquish and perhaps a little assuming as well. I think for the most part and all I have ever seen is professionalism and fairness from all you guys. I just don't like the restrictive nature of the community in LEW itself. I'd like to see more inclusion of sources in other living communities.

I respect the protectiveness of the project and it is with good reason that you all do so but sometimes it does go too far IMO. Just like when one DM's a table top game decisions are alterable and players understand this. If a decision is made that later becomes obviously absurd in execution it can be fixed easy enough. Honestly, half the things people propose are simply for one character concept anyway. I don't see a good deal of the stuff getting abused even if it is "too good". One player can be consoled and compensated or reasoned with when he has been allowed something unbalancing by mistake. We just say no a lot.

Now back on track, I guess there are the two statement that Bront made that have drawn my concern, understand, I respect Bront and his work here, if he is not the most he is certainly one of the most prolific contributers here to the world. Its all Good as well, perhaps not my style of play so much but good and thorough regardless.

The statements are these: (Eyebrow raising issues highlighted and numbered for reference only)

It's sorta the same group, but sorta not. RA isn't in LEW as a judge, I'm a new judge here too, but will be a character judge there. The big think is that most of the same people are interested in both things, and (1)those that are judges here have better references because they have past experience.

Don't worry, there won't be a full cross staffing from LEW and LE. And this (2)has already been discussed by the judges.

Number one is a Lotte assuming, IMO. Sure collectively the judges have been making the calls here on LEW but honestly this has little to do with actual knowledge of the game or the ability to make mature and informed judgments as it does with being in the right place at the right time and doing some leg work for the community.

Like I said and El Jefe confirmed there is little difference between the current crop of judges and any other player/DM who has been playing the game at home. There are no unique or mysterious skills that exclude anyone else from doing the same thing.

Besides that you all had to learn from scratch how to do it so can anyone else (understand there are exceptions to every rule).

As an army officer and leader I took offense to that statement. Everyone can learn all they need is the motivation and the desire and the knowledge and ability will come.

Number 2, this was the most alarming to me. It says to me as I read it that the current set of judges by virtue of being in the right place at the right time are now going to decide who is qualified to become a judge in all future versions and offshoots for all living community projects.

He's saying don't worry the judges have it all under control and will make sure all the versions have the judges they need we (the judges) have already decided how this will be run. It to me, honestly, comes off as a "don't call us we'll call you sort of statement.

So in closing for this issue it seems a little like a lot of exclusivity is taking place.

One last thing for you El Jefe. Please don't take that as a smart aXX thing, I honestly just want to know if you jumped in and the current people responded with a "wow thanks for the effort this is good stuff" or "hey you need to ask us first who are you you need to clear everything with us first".

The reason, I ask is your advice to ask to be a judge for another project is even a little assuming to me because I have to ask to be allowed to participate in the building of a new community as and equal. Did you have to have anyones permission to start working on things?

So I'll go from here I have some ideas for a different type living game I will make in the future also something I wanted to try in LEW as well. Gotta go start catching real bad guys.

 

[DerHauptman]

Bront, I think I have said this to you before and I suspected that the tone of your response would be like it is.

I respect your work but you are overly defensive. It turns people off to what you are saying.

Step back and look at what you have written. Not me...I don't do X, I don't care who's a judge when we play, My proposals are not going fast, see look at me...Me, Me, I did not want this but I am so good they asked me etc.

Also of the judges you are the one in almost every correspondence about having the players included in who should be judges or what the community should be like that responds ever time with words to the effect that the judges are the best qualified to make that decision not the players they are not qualified or demonstrably impartial.

I don't know how old you are or if you have ever been in charge of anything. To tell someone that they are not qualified to have a voice in something that they participate in is like saying you don't know whats good for you. Only I and my fellow elite can save you from yourselves. Not to get into politics but countries who run that way are red and short lived cause it doesn't work. Mutual respect. Things that make you go hum.

You are not under attack personally, its a question of the system as a whole. Divorce yourself from it personally.

I'm not going to go there with you again.

It's fairly obvious that you were upset when you wrote your response.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Number 2, this was the most alarming to me. It says to me as I read it that the current set of judges by virtue of being in the right place at the right time are now going to decide who is qualified to become a judge in all future versions and offshoots for all living community projects.

He's saying don't worry the judges have it all under control and will make sure all the versions have the judges they need we (the judges) have already decided how this will be run. It to me, honestly, comes off as a "don't call us we'll call you sort of statement.

He's not talking about the LEW Judges when he says the Judges chatted. He is talking about the Living Eberron judges. The first crop have already been selected based on who picked the poll option in the Living Eberron thread that said they were willing to help out. Heck, I got picked and I didn't even really expect it--I just wanted to give a bit of help to help them start up, and ironically, out of any possible Living project except a Living Greyhawk, I am perhaps the most mismatched as a Judge for Living Eberron.

 

[Bront]

Bront, I think I have said this to you before. I respect your work but you are overly defensive. It turns people off to what you are saying.

Step back and look at what you have written. Me, Me, I did not this isn't so my stuff is this way etc.

You are not under attack personally, its a question of the system as a whole. Divorce yourself from the emotion and get back to me.

I'n not going to go there with you again.

Well, given I'm the only judge in all 3, this is quite personal to me. Not only that, but you are reading too much into something that was said, that were said by me. It doesn't help you address my comments by calling me BOSS.

Second of all, no, you've never mentioned that I am overly defensive, at least not that I am aware.

Third, the system as a whole is player run, and seperate. The only common thread beyond the player base is that they are all on Enworld. Enworld has endorsed these efforts only by giving us a forum, and asking that we obay the rules, nothing more.

As for judges being in the right place at the right time, that's somewhat how all things happen, is it not? In the right place at the right time, and you could have had the chance to do something completely different. That's life, unfortunately. However, I have yet to hear a single complaint about any of those judges (until now that is) in LEW, and complaints in LS were delt with, I believe much to the satisfaction of everyone involved. I have fairly detailed records of that, but that is a more private matter (IE, e-mail me if you realy want to hear about it).

 

[Bront]

Also of the judges you are the one in almost every correspondence about having the players included in who should be judges or what the community should be like that responds ever time with words to the effect that the judges are the best qualified to make that decision not the players they are not qualified or demonstrably impartial.

I don't know how old you are or if you have ever been in charge of anything. To tell someone that they are not qualified to have a voice in something that they participate in is like saying you don't know whats good for you. Only I and my fellow elite can save you from yourselves. Not to get into politics but countries who run that way are red and short lived cause it doesn't work. Mutual respect. Things that make you go hum.

You are not under attack personally, its a question of the system as a whole. Divorce yourself from it personally.

Ok, you kept adding things.

Your first paragraph is worded oddly, and I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. However, I've never said the players are not qualified, nor that they were not impartial. You're putting words in my mouth(Posts), and reading too much into what was said.

I've never said someone is not qualified to voice their opinion. However, I will say that not everyone is qualified to judge, just like not everyone is qualified to manage, hold a political office, perform heart surgury, etc. Age has nothing to do with it either, as I'm aware that the LEW judges range in age by quite a bit, and at least one is under 20.

I find it interesting that you say I'm not under attack, and then slowly edit the post to actualy attack me. And realy, there is no other way I feel I can take what you're saying, particularly when you keep bringing things up I said, and reading much more into them than you should.

Here's an interesting stat for you though. There are 6 judge slots for the non-LEW games (3 for LS, 3 for LEB). I am the only one in all 3, and KO is the only one in 2 (LEB and LEW). KO has asked to not take as big a roll in LEB as he has in LEW either. So, for all that you are worried about with judges being involved in multiple Living Campaigns, I'm the only one that realy has been heavily involved in all 3 (not that I've realy done much in LEW as a judge other than vote Yes to a few proposals). On top of that, I've been involved in some way in the planning and/or running of 4 different Living Campaigns that will be at Gen Con 06', as well as a history of working for the the second largest Roleplaying tourny there. Apparently it's something I like to do (Honestly, I am suprised by the number myself, I didn't think it was that many).

Basicly, I don't plan on responding again. If you realy want to discuss this with me, you're welcome to drop me an e-mail. However, I think this is getting childish, and I'll not continue this on the boards. It's realy not doing anyone any good.

Sorry everyone.

 

[El Jefe]

BOSS, I appreciate the background and it confirms my suspicion as to how the project took shape.

De Nada.

I am not so concerned with me becoming a judge as much as the appearance that being one is sort of cliquish and perhaps a little assuming as well.

I agree that this could become a problem, but in my opinion (and I have not been privy to any of the LEb or LFr stuff), it hasn't become a problem yet. If it ever does, I will join with you to address it.

Please don't take that as a smart aXX thing, I honestly just want to know if you jumped in and the current people responded with a "wow thanks for the effort this is good stuff" or "hey you need to ask us first who are you you need to clear everything with us first".

It truly came to me as a bolt from the blue. I never asked anyone, and the only vetting process was that the other judges looked at my posts over time and decided that I might be a good candidate. I don't think the half of them even know my name, or anything about me that I haven't posted here.

Did you have to have anyones permission to start working on things?

Nope, just rolled up my sleeves and pitched in. With regard to the places thread, you can see what the response was if you read through the first 10-20 posts in that thread.

Gotta go start catching real bad guys.

Good hunting!

 

[Velmont]

Nope, just rolled up my sleeves and pitched in. With regard to the places thread, you can see what the response was if you read through the first 10-20 posts in that thread.

I can add to that El Jefe is doing a great work. I wouldn't have the patience to do that and gather all the information, but when came the time to run my tournament, I needed as much information on Orussus as possible to keep it consistant. Damn I was happy to see it all gathered in one thread (well, almost all), and thus I have gather in a single thread all the information on Orussus. I don't know if people are using it, but it is a great tool for myself at least.

 

[SlagMortar]

I do think it is good to have some variation in the Living campaigns, though I don't think they necessary need different judges to accomplish that. I happen to like the "beat it to death" proposal system to new material in LEW because I would rather be playing than play testing. Other people such as DerHauptman would prefer a system where almost anything is allowed and then dealt with if and when it becomes a problem.

Imagine a much less restrictive Living campaign. (Note, I'm not suggesting DerHauptman wants a Living campaign like this, but I think it is closer to what he is talking about.) Call it Living Optimistic or Living Playtest. Players can play any class or even write their own as they go. Or could write up a class and start playing it knowing that it may have to be tweaked. Players could start at any level. Can find a feat that does what you want it to? Write up your own with the understanding that you may have to change it if it is unbalancing. Want to say your character went on a vision quest and gained 10000 XP and treasure to bring him up to the correct wealth for his level? No problem.

Personally I would not be very interested in playing a campaign like that, though I might drop over to test out a concept once in awhile. I do think it may have some appeal for other players. A less extreme example could also be constructed that would fall somewhere between LEW and Living Optimistic.

 

[Knight Otu]

Now that I had some sleep and can form more coherent thoughts, I can reply.

I just have some concerns about the centralization of power over the current gaming community with a few select people. Also the view that they are somehow uniquely qualified for this because they have experience is a bunch of BS.

Quite honestly, this isn't happening. Compared to the main Play by Post section, the ENworld Living games are a fringe community.

Before, they were just like the rest of us. Saying that hey are the only ones who can now figure out how to successfully run such a community from he ground up (especially since there is a group to turn to for help) without them is, to me, rather an arrogant statement.

Since we don't say or do anything like that, I'm not sure what your argument is. We turn to the players for help, we listen to the concerns of the players, we change things based on the concerns of the players. Living Eberron hasn't been built from the ground by the judges only, but based on the suggestions from everyone who wants to join and has been willing to give input. If we were thinking that we were somehow the only ones who can craft these things, you'd see much less from us, and more unexplained changes.

Also, the philosophy that the current judges of LEW are somehow uniquely more qualified than anyone else who plays or Dams D&D on a regular basis to set policy, rules or make approvals or judgments effecting the community or tone of the game more than anyone else who has been playing the game since its genesis is wrong.

We aren't. We're just a bunch of enthusiasts who do these things without getting anything back, beyond the fun we have.

I say they are just a bunch of good guys who worked out how to make a place for us all to play on LEW, asked for the space and got the support from someone here at ENW to get it.

That is exactly what we are. Creamsteak, Uriel, GaryH and others created the Living Enworld concept, it got big enough to warrant its own forum, and evolved from there.

Think about it, how’d they majority of them become judges. They laid he framework for the site and through that work are entitled to a lot of say in how their creation develops and this is how it should be BTW. If you lay the framework you would have say. Not all that different than any group of people making any club for that matter. I got to say as I have observed in most clubs the general membership gets a vote on a lot of the decisions made especially about the leadership. (I know we can speak on any topic but without a vote it’s almost useless IMO.)

Actually, many of those people who created Living Enworld are not around anymore, for various reasons. Others are still here, some as judges, some not.

However, what’s the process for selecting the judges who came after them? It’s voted on by only the current judges themselves. The general membership has no say and will never therefore have a real say in the business of the rules.

There is no reason to impugn anyone’s integrity (it’s been all good here so far) but that system is just asking for the perception that it is little more than a popularity contest. If you agree with the current party line and they like you they might make you a judge if not…well you get it. It’s probably just perception but that is the very thing that most organizations have checks and balances in the first place.

Everyone who is active and willing can be a judge, but there is a limit on how many judges are good for the game. Some are concerned there are already too many judges as is. The judges aren't a monolithic hivemind, either, and we've looked at people to be judges precicely because they have different points of view.

This is saying to me that the current judges for the LEW project have already discussed and divided up the pieces of the LEB pie for one and latter the Living FR pie and if not themselves running it they will be the arbiters of who will run it. Who will they allow a piece? What are the criteria and why are they even choosing they already have their community. This is a different one and should be well, different not influenced by the same people

There are no LEB pie or LFR pie. The start of Living Eberron was not a meticulously planned event - it was a spur of the moment I'll-set-up-a-poll-because-it-is-talked-about-more-than-normal thing, and gathered enough support to happen. Before that, it was hardly more than a thought in a few heads, in a it'd be neat way. Likewise, there aren't any real plans to start a Living Faerun game (which would be a nightmare to set up, I imagine), but the same thing goes there - It'd be neat to have. Who'd be a judge there? Those who are enthusiastic to have the game, and willing to do the gruntwork, I imagine.

This I say is too much centralization of authority with so few people. I say the rule should be one judge position for one living community period. That way the communities are indeed unique not influenced by the same people over and over. Now that I’ll caveat with unless no one else steps up to take parts of the development of the world then it can be opened up.

Now here is the question I should have asked last time.

I guess I wasn’t asking the right question. When all these uniquely qualified Judges were just a bunch of people who played D&D and DM’d games at home like the rest of us where did they get the forum room to make LEW.

They got it from Morrus, essentially. They made a game that eventually warranted its own forum, and were granted it. That's not a unique event, even. There was another type of game, You Bastard!, that ran so rampant across the Gaming forum it eventually received its own forum, Fight Club, where it thrived for a relatively long time before dying a slow death, and the Fight Club forum being closed.

By that I mean who granted the forum space and accounts for them to make a living campaign at all. Because I think a new fresh set of people might be a better choice for an alternate living game with perhaps a different set of rules than the current judges would allow.

That’s why I was asking if I talked to PC or who about it.

Again, in closing, I love LEW, think it’s a great place but would like to do a living community here with an entirely different feel and tone - choices not limitations. I will ask for the help of and most likely will use a lot of the lessons learned on LEW cause why reinvent the wheel.

As I said above, the forums come when the interest and the traffic is there. If it warrants a seperate forum, it'll get a seperate forum.

Another issue is that being a judge and playing in the community is a lot different than just playing in a community. As a judge one’s personal character proposals like feats and spells have a tendency to get a little more of a quick and serious look probably from the other judges out of professional courtesy (it’s totally natural and ok with me). Same with other things you are a judge and because of it (even if you don’t ask and never would) people will treat you differently.

That is quite honestly not my experience. Gnomework's Learner class went through alot before it was approved, and it probably holds the record for longest proposal ever. My dervish class took over a year to be approved, the job system went through several threads. My custom spells and the expansion of the Craft system were not approved by the times my character could have researched them, twic. Some of the fastest approved proposals were made by non-judges (SlagMortar's Energy Manipulation in three days, IcyCool's Metal Fist feats even faster, some of Bront before he became a full judge or even before he became the Tavern Coordinator).

I think that one judge position in one living community is plenty. Perhaps being a player in one community would do some good for the judges to make them remember how hard and frustrating it is to get those character special feats and other proposals approved. When you are the judge you can influence the game when not you are at someone else’s mercy. That would go a long way towards all the communities working together and keeping the judge’s heads in the right place so they remember where they came from.

Trust me, I remember how hard and frustrating that is. I still go through it when I'm arguably the most powerful guy in LEW.