General Discussion Thread IX

[DerHauptman]

KO (and the others)

I have failed obviously then to make my points in a way that you can understand. Perhaps they were too close to personal, or a cultural or generational gap of some kind. There was never any question of anyones integrity in my mind only the possibility of the appearance of it.

I don't veil or conceal it in any way I think you can see if I have a problem with someone or something I will just say it.

I could cut up the posts ad nauseum and make points again and again and say no I didn't but you did etc.. I'll spare us the ordeal.

Like I said, I obviously failed to get my point across. This is a good place as I see it with room for improvement as with all things


Whoa, looking at this quote below I see a huge gap in points of view here and obviously vastly different ideas of what we were trying to do. A failure in communication as I see it.

We proved these accusations are wrong.

There was no accusation at all however, you perceived one and therefore I failed to make my point. As soon as the defenses come out any hope of true communication is impossible. As to the quote, all I have to say is that neither you nor I proved anything.

We had some discussions. Neither me saying I felt some things or things IMO seemed or appeared a certain way nor your simple denials prove a thing.

Take Care,

See Ya in game which I still love BTW.

 

[Rystil Arden]

As to the quote, all I have to say is that niether you nor I proved anything.

I have to say that although I disagree with DerHauptman on just about everything else he said (including that I do think he was intimating accusations), I do have to agree with him on this one--neither side proved anything, it was more of a 'I don't actually think this, but it looks like you guys are doing Corrupt Acts X, Y, and Z' followed by 'We aren't doing those. Why would you think that?'.

However, I don't think the Judges had to prove anything here. As far as I know, there is not a single member of our community who has a problem with the Judges or holds the view that they don't allow player input except DH (who actually maybe doesn't quite have a problem but just views a perception of one). Since this is the case, it would seem (in my opinion) obvious that the Judges are doing just fine barring proof from DH to the contrary. I would say the burden of proof is on DH to prove that Judge decisions don't have the mandate of the community, since from my perspective, there is not a single shred of evidence that they do not, that they are trying to help everyone have fun, and that they are fair and impartial enough that judge biases tend to cancel out and produce the correct decision for LEW in the end.

 

[DerHauptman]

RA - Like I said. Your personal belief not withstanding. I agree no one had to prove anything at all. To me it was just a discussion on how things might be viewed.

Perhaps it is a foreign concept but philosophical discussion about perception and reality can take place without the one side inferring something about the other. One could say we are playing semantics but semantics is nothing but the way words are used. If we are not using the words to mean the same things communication is lost and that is what happened here. I draw a huge difference in between saying the appearance or perception of something is thus and making the definitive statement that something is or is not a certain way. Huge difference I hide accusation behind nothing - I have no need if I have a specific accusation I will damn well say it plainly. I have no reason to appear passive yet behave aggressive. When I need/want to be aggressive you can be damn sure I can/will do so plainly and communicating no doubt to the audience that is my intention.

I have no real issues I have concerns that is all. They are just as valid as those of any other.

Again, I think in every single thread I said I think that so far there have been no improprieties at all. A little haughtiness from one judge but nothing else. The only thing that kinda got me was when everyone to a man said they were absolutely impartial - it doesn't exist. KO even then said it in agreement with my point about considering some peoples work more capable and competent than others and considering it with less scrutiny, and responding to a professional known colleague before one who is unknown.

I found it incredulous that no one was willing to just say "sure we are the judges and when one of us makes a proposal we might look at it first out of professional courtesy to another judge". I also said I have no problem with that. Its just basic nature.

This whole thing was lost when people got defensive. Intimate what you'd like about my intent to accuse I certainly know it was not there and I am secure in my integrity as an officer in the military. I certainly will not impugn myself for a frigging game.

I take fault for the breakdown in communication because I misread my audience I could not communicate my intent without them perceiving my input as a personal accusation. I assume that responsibility alone. I thought they'd be less defensive and personally attached to their work here and I was wrong. My fault.

Me mentioning the lack of proof of anything only serves to refute the appearance that I made a challenge of some kind and was found wanting by being "proven wrong" when I am wrong no one will have to say it for me. I will admit it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Intimate what you'd like about my intent to accuse I certainly know it was not there and I am secure in my integrity as an officer in the military. I certainly will not impugn myself for a frigging game.

I take fault for the breakdown in communication because I misread my audience. I thought they'd be less defensive and personally attached to their work here and I was wrong. My fault.

And you know, I'm pretty sure I believe you. Of course, you can never be 100% sure on the internet, though. I believe that you did not view your statements as attacks. The problem is, the way you phrased it is basically exactly the same way as someone would phrase it if they were trying to make attacks passive-aggressively with a velvet glove on, something that is actually smarter than just openly attacking and being discredited. I don't think that's what you're doing, but it looks the same, so we can't be sure. A lot of your statements could have been attacks phrased as helpful discussion or actually just helpful discussion. And I'm sure you viewed them as helpful discussion when you made them. The problem is that over the internet, tone doesn't carry completely, so we can't be sure. And actually, the bigger problem is that very few of your statements (perhaps 1 or 2 out of a whole lot of discussion that wasn't) actually did come out in the end as definitely being personal attacks against Bront, although I don't think you viewed them as such when you were writing them.

Me mentioning the lack of proof of anything only serves to refute the appearance that I made a challenge of some kind and was found wanting by being "proven wrong" when I am wrong no one will have to say it for me. I will admit it.

I completely agree with you that you were not 'proven wrong' here. There was no proof given, but there didn't need to be because the Judges are doing fine.

 

[Salix]

Haven't been reading this thread for awhile (been too busy playing and GMing). Read through some of the discussion preceding and realized I'm glad I'm not a Judge, definitely more headache than prestige. It would be nice to keep it light and fun here, this is only roleplaying. It seems to me that things are getting more personal than they need to be.

Anyway...I was wondering if we are still filling out the LEW pantheon. I have an idea for a desert god I'd like to propose. Anyone know of conflicts? He would be a demigod of survival,perseverance,fertility,etc. My idea is that he is a Totem god and is a huge toad ala spadefoot toads (very cool desert survivalists, see below for more). Followers would be those who live and work in deserts, and those who are weathering a personal storm. This small and unimportant demigod would have few followers. Any feedback is appreciated.

[sblock=Spadefoot biology]
During summer monsoons, the spadefoot is well-known for emerging from its subterranean estivation to breed in the temporary ponds created by the heavy runoff. Interestingly, the cue for adult emergence during these summer thunderstorms is not moisture, but rather low frequency sound or vibration, most likely caused by rainfall or thunder. Upon emergence, males begin calling to attract females. Their calls sound like the bleating of sheep or goats. One female may lay as many as 3000 eggs. Once the eggs are laid, they must hatch quickly into tadpoles before these shallow pools disappear. And hatch quickly they do—at water temperatures of 86°F (30°C) eggs hatch in 15 hours! Tadpoles must also metamorphose quickly—2 weeks on average, sometimes as little as 9 days—into froglets before the ponds dry up. In this exacting atmosphere very few eggs make it to young frogs.

Using the spade on the hind foot, spadefoots can quickly bury themselves in loose, sandy soil. Adult spadefoots burrow into the ground to avoid heat and desiccation, but recently metamorphosed spadefoots may be seen during and immediately after the rainy season in any moist place—under vegetation, former ponds, or moist soil. During this time young spadefoots need to eat enough food to survive the unfavorable living conditions above the surface of the ground. After eating as much as possible, they too burrow beneath the surface. Breeding may not occur in years with insufficient rainfall. Preying primarily upon beetles, grasshoppers, katydids, ants, spiders, and termites, a spadefoot can consume enough food in one meal to last an entire year!
[/sblock]

 

[Rystil Arden]

Haven't been reading this thread for awhile (been too busy playing and GMing). Read through some of the discussion preceding and realized I'm glad I'm not a Judge, definitely more headache than prestige. It would be nice to keep it light and fun here, this is only roleplaying. It seems to me that things are getting more personal than they need to be.

Anyway...I was wondering if we are still filling out the LEW pantheon. I have an idea for a desert god I'd like to propose. Anyone know of conflicts? He would be a demigod of survival,perseverance,fertility,etc. My idea is that he is a Totem god and is a huge toad ala spadefoot toads (very cool desert survivalists, see below for more). Followers would be those who live and work in deserts, and those who are weathering a personal storm. This small and unimportant demigod would have few followers. Any feedback is appreciated.

[sblock=Spadefoot biology]
During summer monsoons, the spadefoot is well-known for emerging from its subterranean estivation to breed in the temporary ponds created by the heavy runoff. Interestingly, the cue for adult emergence during these summer thunderstorms is not moisture, but rather low frequency sound or vibration, most likely caused by rainfall or thunder. Upon emergence, males begin calling to attract females. Their calls sound like the bleating of sheep or goats. One female may lay as many as 3000 eggs. Once the eggs are laid, they must hatch quickly into tadpoles before these shallow pools disappear. And hatch quickly they do—at water temperatures of 86°F (30°C) eggs hatch in 15 hours! Tadpoles must also metamorphose quickly—2 weeks on average, sometimes as little as 9 days—into froglets before the ponds dry up. In this exacting atmosphere very few eggs make it to young frogs.

Using the spade on the hind foot, spadefoots can quickly bury themselves in loose, sandy soil. Adult spadefoots burrow into the ground to avoid heat and desiccation, but recently metamorphosed spadefoots may be seen during and immediately after the rainy season in any moist place—under vegetation, former ponds, or moist soil. During this time young spadefoots need to eat enough food to survive the unfavorable living conditions above the surface of the ground. After eating as much as possible, they too burrow beneath the surface. Breeding may not occur in years with insufficient rainfall. Preying primarily upon beetles, grasshoppers, katydids, ants, spiders, and termites, a spadefoot can consume enough food in one meal to last an entire year!
[/sblock]

That sounds really neat! Very flavourful and easy to fit into the pantheon without stepping on toes. Write him up and maybe he'll get voted in

 

[Bront]

Yup, there is a discussion on the pantheon thread for that stuff as well, but I think we've cleared out a lot of proposals so we should be fairly open again. I think we're waiting on a few more to have GMs chime in on.

We still don't have many racial gods, but I kinda like that. Makes the pantheon more open.

 

[Knight Otu]

Perhaps "proven wrong" was too strong a term in that context, but the claim was that judges have it easier somehow in games or with proposals, and we've named several cases that show it isn't really the case. That's why I use the, maybe overreactive, "proven wrong." Anyway, before this runs in circles, let's close this discussion for now (not the thread, though - carry on posting).

 

[Patlin]

Haven't been reading this thread for awhile (been too busy playing and GMing). Read through some of the discussion preceding and realized I'm glad I'm not a Judge, definitely more headache than prestige. It would be nice to keep it light and fun here, this is only roleplaying. It seems to me that things are getting more personal than they need to be.

Having just gotten back from a vacation, I haven't been keeping up either, and the conversation is a bit daunting to go back and read through thoroughly -- frankly, I'm more interested in updating my games.

However, to whatever extent that things seem to be getting personal, I'd ask everyone to be carefull of everyone else's feelings. If extra editting of a message so a comment that wasn't intended to be insulting doesn't wind up being taken that way, PLEASE take that time.

I'm not adressing this to anyone in particular, and I haven't read the above discussion enough to know if this reminder is even needed, but let's make it a priority to get along. EN World, despite the anonymity of the internet, is basically a social gathering. Let's try to be friendly -- both in how we intend things, and in how we are actually percieved.

 

[Salix]

Yup, there is a discussion on the pantheon thread for that stuff as well, but I think we've cleared out a lot of proposals so we should be fairly open again. I think we're waiting on a few more to have GMs chime in on.

We still don't have many racial gods, but I kinda like that. Makes the pantheon more open.

Thanks! I'll send further comments that way. Id like to discuss there before I propose anything.