General Discussion Thread IX

[Jdvn1]

What would happen if the person committing the insult refused to duel? I genuinely don't know because I'm only passingly familiar with Dumas.

It depends... if they're wealthy enough for an assasssin, they might get one, or they might start to attack the person outright--they had the chance to defend themselves, and they turned it down. If for some reason you lived long enough, turning down a duel labels you as a coward and you'd probably lose rank or be shunned.

The situations get messy. Well, messier--there are always caveats and personal codes and personal opinions of how things should be done that varied sometimes a lot. Even characters in the genre admit to it duels and insults being messy/muddy/unclear situations.

If the refuser was of lower rank/status, he'd probably "disappear" one night and never show up again. Either he'd be killed or run out of the city. If the refuser was of higher rank/status, the challenger would constantly seek out the refuser and continually pester him for a duel, showing up as his door, stealing property, or kidnapping a family member until he settled for a duel in order to clear his name.

Though, duels didn't always end in death. They sometimes fought until one side either gave up, conceding to the other side (apologizing for the original act, or conceding the act was justified; either way, losing face), but that would incur bad blood and probably future duels; and sometimes they fought until one side was seriously maimed/disarmed/etc with much the same results. The intent is normally to kill the opponent, though, unless the duelers were previously friends.

It's a bit of a grey area, and I don't draw Dumas as my only source for the genre. He's probably the best known author, though.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm glad this has led us to an interesting discussion, at the very least--though I was hoping initially, however, to save this discussion until after a team was recruited so I could tell them to avoid the details of metagame knowledge (that's why I didn't mention it here first). It's a bit late now, of course, but if anyone wants to join BigB, we can still have an interesting tangled web of adventurers

 

[Jdvn1]

I would say that whenever following a society or set of societal codes that necessitates killing someone for a slight or such is involved, it becomes an evil act to force the killing on someone who doesn't also follow the code, even if it wasn't evil against someone who also does.

It's not quite forced, though you could arguably call it that. Honor is held very highly, and any such insult diminishes one's honor to such an extreme that some men would rather lose limbs than have a smudge on their honor and for other men... it's at least a close call. I wouldn't call it evil, I'd call it interesting.

I think Chapter 4 of Dumas's Three Musketeers is a relatively short and highly entertaining read:
http://www.online-literature.com/dumas/threemusketeers/4/

 

[Rystil Arden]

It's not quite forced, though you could arguably call it that. Honor is held very highly, and any such insult diminishes one's honor to such an extreme that some men would rather lose limbs than have a smudge on their honor and for other men... it's at least a close call. I wouldn't call it evil, I'd call it interesting.

I think Chapter 4 of Dumas's Three Musketeers is a relatively short and highly entertaining read:
http://www.online-literature.com/dumas/threemusketeers/4/

Oh, it certainly is interesting, I'll agree, but I consider it to be evil (specifically, it is Lawful Evil) to force your own personal code on others who don't follow it to the point of killing them, particularly when you are not willing to accept the reverse in return. The two non-evil ways to proceed, in my mind, would be to either attempt to find the person's own society's recourse and pursue it OR to do exactly what Anton did and shoot the man under Anton's own code but then to hold himself to the same standard and submit to the local law for the consequences of that action. By resisting and refusing arrest, Anton showed that he is willing to force his own beliefs on others (to the point of ending their lives) and not willing to accept any other social codes himself unless they equate to his own (as shown when he first asked what the punishment would likely be and then refused because he decided it was too high).

As I said, definitely in character, and definitely interesting. Quintessential Dumas roleplaying. But also Evil.

 

[Rystil Arden]

By the way, this whole discussion and understanding more of Anton's Dumas-like nature and code of honour has convinced me that the next part of IA is going to be really interesting and possibly quite entertaining

 

[Someone]

" Let Gimli the Dwarf Glóin's son warn you against foolish words. You speak evil of that which is fair beyond the reach of your thought, and only little wit can excuse you."

Another literary source on insults that almost (Aragorn had to use some bit of diplomacy) end with a fight.

 

[Jdvn1]

Oh, it certainly is interesting, I'll agree, but I consider it to be evil (specifically, it is Lawful Evil) to force your own personal code on others who don't follow it to the point of killing them

You consider death a worse sentence than the people in that society.

particularly when you are not willing to accept the reverse in return.

Oh, they'll avoid their own deaths, but they won't avoid a fight. In short, if someone (an NPC) wanted to kill Anton, Anton would certainly fight him. He'd be fine with dying for his actions, if he got a fair fight in. It is kind of a double-standard.

The two non-evil ways to proceed, in my mind, would be to either attempt to find the person's own society's recourse and pursue it OR to do exactly what Anton did and shoot the man under Anton's own code but then to hold himself to the same standard and submit to the local law for the consequences of that action. By resisting and refusing arrest, Anton showed that he is willing to force his own beliefs on others (to the point of ending their lives) and not willing to accept any other social codes himself unless they equate to his own (as shown when he first asked what the punishment would likely be and then refused because he decided it was too high).

Read chapter five. Local law means nothing next to honor.

 

[Jdvn1]

By the way, this whole discussion and understanding more of Anton's Dumas-like nature and code of honour has convinced me that the next part of IA is going to be really interesting and possibly quite entertaining

Chapters 4 and 5 of Three Musketeers are two of my favorite chapters of any book. All of the three musketeers and D'Artagnan are Good characters, so Anton isn't quite like them either. He's also not as good with a rapier and he isn't soloing his adventure (and, certainly, the party doesn't share his views), so compromises have to be made.

Though... speaking of Lord of the Rings, and Viggo Mortensen, Anton's character is more similar to a the main character from Alatriste, though from the book. [/plug]

 

[Manzanita]

I was wondering if anything has been done to the Vastermarch cities.

I was thinking of placing my next adventure series there. I scanned through the 'threads recompilation' thread & didn't find mention of it. Any idea who created it? Any details of it already laid out? I know some things about the Northern Mountains. How about Silverwood?

In case anyone missed my question amidst all this interesting discussion, I'll repost it.

 

[Knight Otu]

From the Wiki:

Mentioned in the background of Silvercat. Home to High Elves. Possibly a collection of City-States?
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Rivenblight was once a thriving trade center utilized as a middle ground between the Grey Elves of LarkenwoldReach, the Wood Elves of the SilverWood and the High Elves of the VastermarchCities. .... Imports:All manner of trade goods, much coming from the Vastermarch, which borders many lands and comprises an astounding array of Trade prospects.
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RivenBlight is some 250 miles North of the City Of Orussus, located in a hilly region between the forests of The SilverWood to the North, the hilly woods of LarkenwoldReach to the South ,the VastermarchCities (a region of plains and rich fertile grasslands, as well as light woods) to the West and the hostile Human RealmOfHendrallia sitting to the East. RivenBlight is the largest congregation of Elvenkind in all of Enworld, with every race of Elvenkind being represented, even the Drow...

Now searching ENWorld.