General Discussion

[jackslate45]

After taking a look at the mythic rules, there is some part of me wondering why Paizo did this. Some of those rules are insane...

However, I can see the appeal in it. For Example, Full round attack + move; Recalling previous cast spells. Standard action summons (!).
I would agree with SK: IF the judges allow this, only a small subset of characters should be able to get it.

 

[Grayn]

After taking a look at the mythic rules, there is some part of me wondering why Paizo did this. Some of those rules are insane...

I haven't had a chance to look through Mythic yet, but I did get the Worldwound Incursion. I agree they seem to going the route of a "bigger is better" answer for new content. That's worrisome from a creative perspective, in my opinion.

And with the announcement of the next AP (Iron Gods, supposedly robot fans are really excited), I fear they are skirting a jump of the sharks.

Saying that, I do plan to run Wrath of the Righteous as written (with Mythic rules).

 

[Satin Knights]

They did it for two reasons. 1) People were asking for high level/high power content. 2) They have already filled in all the basics. All the bases are covered with the current classes. The same goes for spells. After you have put out an "Ultimate Equipment", what are you going to call a second book of equipment. Weird races are done. So, the tropes left were epic, in which they twisted a bit and made mythic, psionics, and robots. They are quickly running out of topics to create rulebooks for. Hopefully, they realize and accelerate their AP production to increase adventure content. They are almost done writing rules and need to focus more on writing stories. The focus on Pathfinder Online launch will provide a bit of distraction for a while next year, but the horizon is fairly clear.

Yeah, attaching access to mythic to DM credits will slow the proliferation of mythic characters quite a bit, as well as their growth. We currently have five GMs that could spend enough DMC points to get to 3rd tier, and only PM could get up to 4th level, if we used the sliding scale I suggested in the judges forum. Those GMs have been doing the hard work continuously for over a year now. But, anyone who is interested in Mythic, after being a GM for 90 days, will have earned enough DMCs to be able to join the mythic club. So, everybody can have access if they put in the extra time to be a GM.

 

[Aura]

From your own description, SK, there just doesn't seem to be much to gain through the use of Mythic, but some problems, such as with making games more explosive in terms of damage vs defense. Am I missing something?

 

[Satin Knights]

I personally want it because pathfinder is getting too balanced and predictable. There are no curve balls. Even eidolons are predictable. If it has four legs, target its will save. If you can't find its master, it's inside the eidolon, so target the fort save. Mythic adds a myriad of curve balls, none of which should be "automatically known" on a knowledge skill check. That makes the opponent an "unknown" that you have to first figure out on the fly instead of launching the perfect attack for the situation on round one and by round three start bickering on how to divide the treasure.

In other words, I have seen it all, and am getting slightly bored. Once you know the percentages, straight poker gets boring. I'm looking for wild cards.

 

[Aura]

That is interesting. I don't really embrace game systems in such a manner any more, so perhaps I didn't think of it that way. Although, I'd be concerned, given that you're pretty bright, that you'll somehow figure out Mythic as well. Take that with a grain of salt; I don't know much about the product outside what people have said here.

 

[Grayn]

They are quickly running out of topics to create rulebooks for.

Exactly.

Hopefully, they realize and accelerate their AP production to increase adventure content. They are almost done writing rules and need to focus more on writing stories.

I agree with this, as well. But, unfortunately, I don't think our opinion is shared by their CEO (as seen in the recent announcement of the Advanced Class book). In response to a comment about Paizo being more about rules, then stories, Lisa Stevens had this to say:

You are right. We just have two adventure paths (12 volumes), a 300+ page super dungeon, the next RPG Superstar module, and two or more PFS scenarios each month. By my count, thats at least 1,836 pages of adventures, compared to 732 pages of rules product. Certainly shows our lack of committment to adventures.

In my opinion, I think she missed the point.

I have seen this semi-snarky type comment coming from Paizo a little more recently and that's another problem. It seems there is a feeling that anyone with criticism that is focused on their "bigger" picture gets shot down. Pride has a way of biting you in the keister. It kills a lot conversation concerning possibly future development direction.

This leads into one of my biggest issues with Paizo. They seem to have a real knack with splitting their player base. Squelching disinters (un-intentionally or not) is just another way they may be putting a wedge between their fans.

 

[Satin Knights]

Well, that quote must be really old because they have a lot more than that in both categories now. Paizo is doing a good job. I believe they are beating WoTC in market share. Not bad when you can beat the incumbent at their own game. They are listening to the people. They may only implement 10% of the advice they get, but they are paying attention to the advice and choosing what they want to use. I am personally responsible for arguing with Joshua Jacobs that eidolons should be capable of being ridden to the point Paizo created the Mount evolution for the eidolon. Before that, the creature was just semi-solid smoke that could never be ridden, even though the summoner class had ride as a class skill.

Paizo has done an excellent job of rebuilding a rules base and keeping balance between classes so that ultimate unstoppable creations like Pun Pun or Codzilla don't happen. Even the great and mighty AM BARBARIAN can be taken down and defeated. (Yeah, I worked it out on paper. A Ranger 7/Synthesist 13 could not only survive the surprise attack, but take him out with 80% success.)

Mythic is designed to break the balance, somewhat, maybe upset the balance is a better phrase, but it is an optional set of rules to add power and pitfalls to make the environment more dangerous and challenging. Surprising, dangerous and challenging is what I am looking for out of the Mythic rules.

 

[Grayn]

Well, that quote must be really old because they have a lot more than that in both categories now.

Nope, she said it just yesterday.

Don't get me wrong, I think Paizo is doing a great job too. I just fear they're recently making moves that may signal issues later down the road.

I also agree that they listen to their player base (at least for smaller ideas). But when some one vocalizes that they would like to see the emphasis put on beefing up their storytelling (instead of more classes) and the response is "We're doing enough", it indicates to me that they are not interested to hear that their present focus may not be working for everyone. That sort of confidence may be problematic in the future.

Remember their big announcement for the coming year (at least so far), is that they are going to have 10 more classes (hybrids of existing classes to my understanding) and an AP full of robots. I wish they would do more in making their products a little more cohesive (like folding PFS into APs...and not just throwing chronicles at players to use whenever) and work on large-scale story arcs, instead of more class choices.

Just my opinion.

 

[Satin Knights]

Okay. Maybe those number are just page counts for what is released this year. Remember, that is a quick quip while working the biggest convention of the year for her. Don't try to read too much into it.

PFS is designed for short blocks that are interchangeable. That is fine and good. My area has roughly 100 PFS players. I could be sitting at a table with any one of them on a given day. PFS does a good job of keeping conformity and balance. They have also been running story arcs in the PFS for the last three years. The story arc has little consequence on the individual, but keeps the focus off of raid and plunder the dungeon of the day.