Gestalt as a level adjustment

[Thanee]

Just example of actual power increases...

There's not a power increase in the class abilities themselves, but there is a synergy effect, which increases the total power of the character.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nifft]

The most useful definition of "power" I've seen is: what's the most damage you can drop in a round? Gestalt does not increase the DC of your spells, does not raise your BAB, does not increase your max number of Sneak Attack dice. It does not raise the max rank you can have in a skill. In that sense, your "max power" is not increased.

However, it does offer some nice synergy: a Rogue//Wizard could use a Ray spell to deal both high spell damage and normal sneak attack damage. He can't do this as a classic Rogue would (using TWF in melee) nor as a classic Wizard would (out in the open, but behind a tank). He must be both hidden and within 30 ft.

Most gestalt benefits are ablative -- they reduce your weaknesses rather than enhancing your strengths. Ftr//Rogue or Barb//Rogue is a bit of an exception, since Rogue gives you strong melee damage if you are flanking, but you could look at that as "reducing Rogue's weakness" (lack of armor, low Fort save and HP).

Anyway -- from what I've seen, LA +2 seems simplest and vaguely okay across all levels, though it's a bit harsh at level 1-3 (ECL 3-5).

Cheers, -- N

 

[DungeonMaester]

+1 La for every 4 levels.


---Rusty

 

[Pyrex]

I would imagine that unless it's mandated by the DM, no one would take an NPC class for either side of the gestalt.

Not necessarily true, I can clearly see good reason for gestalting with Expert for a skill-based character who wants skills that are not on the Rogue class skill list.

True, it may not happen often, but it's worth considering.

 

[Li Shenron]

There's not a power increase in the class abilities themselves, but there is a synergy effect, which increases the total power of the character.

Bye
Thanee

Yes... and how do you address characters to see if a group is balanced? By looking at each ability or at the "total character power"?

I think that looking at abilities one-by-one is important in order to check that not a single one goes "over the top", but definitely it isn't the ONLY way a character can be overpowered compared to the others.

 

[Li Shenron]

The most useful definition of "power" I've seen is: what's the most damage you can drop in a round? Gestalt does not increase the DC of your spells, does not raise your BAB, does not increase your max number of Sneak Attack dice. It does not raise the max rank you can have in a skill. In that sense, your "max power" is not increased.

Bah... so you think that if I play let's say for example:

a Fighter
with HD 12
Monk's saving throws
Rogue skill points and class skills, uncanny dodge, evasion, trapfinding and trap bonuses
bardic knowledge and music (except effects that increase damage)
cleric spells per day but only for healing and protections
paladin's divine health/divine grace/detect good
ranger track/endurance/fast tracker/camouflage/hide in plain sight
a few invisibility/teleportation/divination/illusion/enchantment wizard spells per day

...I am still balanced with someone playing a normal Fighter? :\

 

[starwed]

The most useful definition of "power" I've seen is: what's the most damage you can drop in a round?

Even when we're only comparing pure combat prowess, being able to take punishment definitely translates into power too.

 

[Nifft]

Bah... so you think that if I play let's say for example:

a Fighter
with HD 12
Monk's saving throws
Rogue skill points and class skills, uncanny dodge, evasion, trapfinding and trap bonuses
bardic knowledge and music (except effects that increase damage)
cleric spells per day but only for healing and protections
paladin's divine health/divine grace/detect good
ranger track/endurance/fast tracker/camouflage/hide in plain sight
a few invisibility/teleportation/divination/illusion/enchantment wizard spells per day

...I am still balanced with someone playing a normal Fighter? :\

1/ Normal fighters suck ; and
2/ your gestrawman class gets a bit more than normal gestalt ; and
3/ "LA +2 against" is not the same as "balanced against".

Hope that answers your question.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Even when we're only comparing pure combat prowess, being able to take punishment definitely translates into power too.

Or you could call that factor stamina, since it's both the ability to deal with more encounters and the ability to deal with tougher encounters.

I think it's important to differentiate between the two, since some encounters will be just plain too tough for a PC's abilities (like a higher-SR, higher save critter) while others will simply use up more abilities (like a larger mob of critters, each member of which the caster can reliably affect).

You could call this just a semantic distinction -- "power" is a pretty vague term -- but I think it's useful when designing encounters for Gestalt PCs to know what their strengths are, and what their weaknesses are.

Cheers, -- N

 

[rgard]

It definitely depends on the level. Lower level Gestalt characters are only a little better than normal characters, while higher level Gestalt characters gain a lot more. The same observation can be applied to the Mystic Theurge PrC, which is pretty bad at low levels (Gestalts skip this part and immediately start out a little stronger, of course), then grows faster than existing classes, and finally becomes really potent... so potent, that the Epic progression has been nerfed back to a standard alternate progression.

So, I would go with +1 per 5 class levels. That sounds about right.
In play that would mean, that you sometimes have to gain 2 levels before getting an actual level-up, because you have to compensate for the new LA first.

Bye
Thanee

Hi Thanee, where/when did they nerf the epic MT?

Thanks,
Rich