Gestalt as a level adjustment

[starwed]

You can see the nerfed epic MT here.

It's one of those examples of brain rot on the part of WotC. It alternates your arcane and divine spell casting alternately, and grants a bonus feat every 6 levels! You could simply alternate in your base classes and get

• the same spell casting progression
• more bonus feats (epic cleric and wizard get 1 every 3 levels)
• better hp (from the divine side)
• more class features (such as turning, familiar advancement, etc.)

How prestigous! And of course, you could take regular prestige classes (such as the hierophant/archmage) in place of base classes, to get even more power.

[/threadjack]

 

[Nifft]

You can see the nerfed epic MT here.

How prestigous! And of course, you could take regular prestige classes (such as the hierophant/archmage) in place of base classes, to get even more power.

Wow, that is rather bad.

I'd rather use Archmage + Loremaster to advance Arcane + Divine (respectively). And using Loremaster to advance Divine casting is saying a lot.

[/threadjack], -- N

 

[igavskoga]

Since I'm looking for excuses to put off writing a rather large paper, this is just right off the top of my head:

The similarity between Gestalt and AD&D multiclassing has already been noted - why not take it one step further? Instead of an LA split up the XP pools like they did back then and divide XP gained by however many Gestalt classes you have.

Interesting? Not so much? LA accomplish the same thing?

 

[Nifft]

The similarity between Gestalt and AD&D multiclassing has already been noted - why not take it one step further? Instead of an LA split up the XP pools like they did back then and divide XP gained by however many Gestalt classes you have.

AD&D had exponential XP advancement charts. So going from level N to N+1 took about as much XP as going from level 1 to N. Multi-class PCs with one class would be about a level behind their single-class companions. (Roughly, it would be LA +1.)

3e has much more linear advancement, thanks to the fact that XP from encounters now scale with your level -- monsters don't give fixed XP any more.

So, take a look at the XP required to have a 10th level PC, and what level a PC would be if that number were split in half.

Since you have time to kill, the analysis is left as an exercise.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Voadam]

The most useful definition of "power" I've seen is: what's the most damage you can drop in a round? Gestalt does not increase the DC of your spells, does not raise your BAB, does not increase your max number of Sneak Attack dice. It does not raise the max rank you can have in a skill. In that sense, your "max power" is not increased.

***

Cheers, -- N

Feats, sneak attack damage, and raging all can increase damage output from single actions, so gestalting with rogues, fighters, or barbarians would be an increase in power by this definition, with rangers and paladins Favored enemy and smiting sometimes adding power damage output as well. Magical buffs such as bardic music and bull's strength can enhance how much damage a character does so that leaves gestalting with monks as not really increasing damage output and therefore power.

While the increase may be modest, max damage can be increased by almost any combination of classes gestalting.

 

[DungeonMaester]

+1 La for every 4 levels of Gestlalt.

1st Gelstalt level: +0
4th Gelstalt level: +1
8th Gelstalt level: +2
12th Gelstalt level: +3
16th Gelstalt level: +4
20th Gelstalt level: +5

---Rusty

*Shameless bumb*

No thoughts on this? Its worked for me, personaly.

---Rusty

 

[Nifft]

While the increase may be modest, max damage can be increased by almost any combination of classes gestalting.

Yes, absolutely!

Even taking Fighter//Monk, one has more combat options -- one could Flurry (and with the Fighter's BAB, that's a nice option), and one gets even more bonus Feats which add more tactical combat options. (The monk does take some stuff away from the fighter -- the lack of armor will hurt if your Wisdom isn't amazing -- but even Monk isn't a total loss.)

Quantifying the power increase is the hard part.

IMHO, Favored Enemy progression is worth about +2 BAB. If you were using a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, you'd be able to deal about +4 damage, which is about what I'd expect a Favored Enemy to be worth. Favored Enemy bonus applies to more checks, but Power Attack is more reliable. (FE also works on ranged attacks... but IMHO FE is more situational, less frequently applicable.)

Anyway. Regarding the potent combo of Fighter//Rogue or Barbarian//Rogue, I'd suggest comparing them to regular multi-class Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Barbarian. Both multiclass options are potent and popular.

Agree? Disagree? Do you like jello?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Abisashi]

Do you like jello?

Only when it isn't corrupted by non-jello substances, such as fruit. Reminds me of junk floating around inside of a gelatinous cube?

Since you have time to kill, the analysis is left as an exercise.

I'm not him, but...
Levels listed are for non-gestalt characters:
Looks like it starts at ~ +1 LA at 2nd level, and hit +6 LA at 20th. If the party is going over the XP required to hit levels by a reasonable amount, the LA penalty drops by ~1.

A little harsh.

 

[Voadam]

Yes, absolutely!

Even taking Fighter//Monk, one has more combat options -- one could Flurry (and with the Fighter's BAB, that's a nice option), and one gets even more bonus Feats which add more tactical combat options. (The monk does take some stuff away from the fighter -- the lack of armor will hurt if your Wisdom isn't amazing -- but even Monk isn't a total loss.)

Quantifying the power increase is the hard part.

IMHO, Favored Enemy progression is worth about +2 BAB. If you were using a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, you'd be able to deal about +4 damage, which is about what I'd expect a Favored Enemy to be worth. Favored Enemy bonus applies to more checks, but Power Attack is more reliable. (FE also works on ranged attacks... but IMHO FE is more situational, less frequently applicable.)

Anyway. Regarding the potent combo of Fighter//Rogue or Barbarian//Rogue, I'd suggest comparing them to regular multi-class Rogue/Fighter or Rogue/Barbarian. Both multiclass options are potent and popular.

Agree? Disagree? Do you like jello?

Cheers, -- N

Agree, a multiclass rogue warrior gives up some BAB, SA, skill points, and HD size as they trade off, a gestalt gets max for these all the time.

For the power comparison by your definition, BAB and SA are the key components that make them more powerful than the multiclass.