Gestalt Characters

[Darklone]

I allow multiclassing into the favored class of the race. That's usually acceptable.

 

[pallandrome]

I'm in a gestalt game that allows standard multi-classing and prestige classes, and it hasn't hurt the game one bit. Hell, one player is even running a druid/druid (one is the Swift and Deadly Hunter varient, the other uses the Natures Aspect wildshape varient) and he does just fine. It's a 36 point buy, and from what I can see, it really isn't that much different form running normal D&D, aside from the somewhat increased bookkeeping.

 

[Patlin]

But once the Foresight + Celerity + Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Acid Fog + Forcecage type combinations start flying around, people are kinda up the creek without 9th level spell-type abilities.

Wouldn't the force cage block line of effect for the Acid Fog and Dimensional Lock, unless you placed the center inside the forcecage? If you did the latter, they'd be relatively easy for a warlock to dispell, even if he never chose a single magic item creation feat.

Also, what makes this particular to a Gestalt game? Couldn't the same argument be put forward that no one should play anything but a pure caster, ever? If the gestalt game in question is starting at level 15+, I missed it.

 

[Storyteller01]

Currently running a mixed gestalt campaign.

6 members, basic gestalting rules with the ceveat that PrC's that mix two classes count as both sides for level advancement. Same with certain classes (Goodman game's Fey classes are too powerful to let gestalt).

Typical NPC's have an NPC class, better than average NPC's get a PC class, and exceptional individuals (characters and important NPC's) are gestalt.

I add about 2 to 3 levels for enemies that are not gestalt. It works well. No one just walks through an encounter. This is if they are working together. For solo or paired adventures, kepping them the same level works well. Just keep in mind that opponents will have to be smart, what with their target having more options. Our Psion/Unfettered almost bought it from an SA from a rogue 2 levels lower than he was.

 

[jason_gosse]

Wouldn't the force cage block line of effect for the Acid Fog and Dimensional Lock, unless you placed the center inside the forcecage? If you did the latter, they'd be relatively easy for a warlock to dispell, even if he never chose a single magic item creation feat.

Also, what makes this particular to a Gestalt game? Couldn't the same argument be put forward that no one should play anything but a pure caster, ever? If the gestalt game in question is starting at level 15+, I missed it.

I do not Belive that I said any such thing. Point of fact it will start at level 2.

 

[Jack Simth]

Wouldn't the force cage block line of effect for the Acid Fog and Dimensional Lock, unless you placed the center inside the forcecage? If you did the latter, they'd be relatively easy for a warlock to dispell, even if he never chose a single magic item creation feat.

The listed order is pretty much the casting order; Foresight to not be flat-footed; Celerity to have an action when you want it. Time Stop (prefferably with a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell) to have the lesiure for the rest. Dimensional Lock to keep your target in place. Acid Fog (maximizeable) to hurt the target. Forcecage to keep the target in the area.

Yeah, it's dispellable - there are three different elements which, if you remove one, removes the problem (remove Acid Fog -> no damage, no problem; remove Forcecage -> walk out, no problem; remove Dimensonal Lock -> Teleport out, no problem).

But as I mentioned, the warlock gets 9th level spell-type abilities. And it's still liable to take him two or three rounds to get out... during which time, he's effectively neutralized. Hope nobody else is relying on his presence.

Now try getting out of it with a Rogue/Fighter, twice in a row, without being a pseud-caster (A Sorcerer with a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell can pull this off [with Greater Celerity for the full-round action to Metamagic the spell, rather than regular Celerity] two or three times per day).

Also, what makes this particular to a Gestalt game?

It's not.

Couldn't the same argument be put forward that no one should play anything but a pure caster, ever?

Sort of. It's a usefullness-curve issue.

Combat Brutes are really good at low levels (where special abilities are usually "meh", and the most convienient way to eliminate a challenge is a few hits from a weapon), or in certain types of adventures (endurance runs). At higher levels, not so much.

Sneaks have a relatively flat usefulness curve (stealth is handy at any level; if your opponent can't find you, your opponent has a hard time properly defending against you).

Full Casters are rather weak at the start (where spells are usually "meh"), but are really good at high levels (when you can fit three "save or X" spells into a round, where X basically results in neigh-certain defeat for your opponent - or even no save "you're dead, chump", as described above).

With Gestalt, you get to seamlessly combine two curves, and get the best of both; low-level Combat Brute usefullness with high-level Full Caster usefulness.

If the gestalt game in question is starting at level 15+, I missed it.

Didn't see that in there, no. But when I plan, I tend to plan a bit ahead. I'd rather not have PC's retireing in the middle of a campaign; strains versimilitude somewhat that a group of four people, who've been through thick and thin, upon losing one of their number (in character due to ... something ... out of character, due to a reduced "fun factor" from being behind on the current usefulness curve), will suddenly trust this new outsider coming in on the scene with their lives on a regular basis.

When you've kinda arranged for the usefulness curves to be comparatively flat, it happens less often.

 

[Patlin]

Hmm. That matches my experience in earlier editions, but in my opinion the usefullness curves in 3.x are a lot flatter. A non-gestalt psionic warrior (with maximum level of powers at 6) never felt less than usefull to me. I mostly play spellcasters or Gish builds, though, so I can't claim much experience with character that can't eventually cast 9th level spells. Some of them go epic before getting there, but I must admit most of my characters can get there eventually.

 

[Voadam]

I've both played and DMd Gestalt. It makes individual characters fit more adventuring niches and is only a marginal increase in total power IMO.

You can still only cast one spell, make your full attack, or take so much hp damage in a round as a gestalt. Figure LA +1 roughly IMO.

Very useful for small parties to handle multiple niches such as healing, combat, trapfinding/stealth.

 

[Thanee]

Figure LA +1 roughly IMO.

At lower levels, yeah. At higher levels, it gets a lot more potent, though.

About +1 LA per 5 levels is a good estimate, I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[BlueBlackRed]

At lower levels, yeah. At higher levels, it gets a lot more potent, though.

About +1 LA per 5 levels is a good estimate, I think.

I guess it depends on your experiences.
From what my group could do, +1 LA per 3 levels is what I estimated. But it also could be because we weren't limited to the PHB.

Having access to the complete books and others gave us a bit of power.