Gestalt CR?

[Judou Ashita]

Hello there, everyone! It's been some time since I last posted here, but I'm going to try and be more punctual in updating my posts!

Anyway, I need a few hints on setting CR for a Gestalt character (from Unearthed Arcana). More to the point, one of my new campaign's greatest villains will be a Level 21 Monk/Fighter Gestalt, whom my PC will possibly be facing before reaching Epic levels. In your opinion, what should be a good estimate for such a character's CR?

Thanks for any answer!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say with gestalt, you really can't follow the standard formulas, some combos are just so much better than others. In the case of a Fighter/Monk...you're still not getting ANY spellcasting, and skill points are fairly poor (though that's not as big a deal for an NPC). From the Monk's perspective, he's gained...full BAB, +1 HD size, a bunch of worthless proficiencies (proficiency with reach weapons +feat to count it as a monk weapon may be worthwhile), and bonus feats. Really, not much. Depends how well you power game his/her build, and if you agree with the standard CR system (that a level 21 Human in a PC class is CR 21). If you do, I'd say this person is CR 22 or 23 depending on just how good you design it. If you don't... +1 or +2 CR above whatever you'd place a normal level 21 NPC as.

If I were to just toss out a number and ignore the CR system standards, I'd need to see the complete build to judge.

 

[irdeggman]

If the NPCs are gestalt then so to should the PCs be. If everyone is gestalt then it pretty much balances out as "even".

If only the NPCs are gestalt then the game is poorly planned. Gestalt is designed for PCs and may be applied to NPCs but it is primarily designed for PCs.

 

[Loonook]

If the NPCs are gestalt then so to should the PCs be. If everyone is gestalt then it pretty much balances out as "even".

If only the NPCs are gestalt then the game is poorly planned. Gestalt is designed for PCs and may be applied to NPCs but it is primarily designed for PCs.

What?

I love the Gestalt system, but come on... specifying that the PCs must be gestalt to fight against an enemy is ridiculous. PCs fight against demons, dragons, and beasties way beyond themselves... and they never seem to have an issue with that. A character who gains (in this case) monk's advancement, fighter's feats, a d10, saves, and no real 'oomph' (woohoo! I am considered an outsider and can jump high!) . . . well, it just doesn't seem to be so worldshattering.

And to accuse the poor guy of making a 'poorly planned' game because he wants to make the last villain in the game hard for the PCs... Ehh, I don't know what game we're even playing anymore.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Alzrius]

My read on this is the same as StreamOfTheSky's, this character would be a CR 22, or CR 23 at most.

When used for NPCs, most gestalt combinations aren't that much more powerful than a non-gestalt character, simply due to economy of actions. An NPC will only be "on-screen" for so long, so the total number of actions it can take is limited, meaning that having additional class abilities is really only useful if they're defensive or always-active.

In your character's case, comparing him to a normal monk, he'll have an extra 21 hit points from the increase in Hit Dice, a BAB 5 higher than it'd otherwise be, and the eleven fighter bonus feats. Those are all that'll make any appreciable difference in the character's power. Given that at least four of them should definitely be Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization, all for his unarmed strike, that just leaves another seven to choose.

So yeah, he won't be much tougher than a standard monk of the same level.

 

[Runestar]

And not forgetting that the cr guidelines for classed npcs are woefully inaccurate. I would put him at around cr15-16 max (assuming he has gear appropriate for a cr15 npc). Neither a fighter20 or a monk20 are remotely anywhere near cr20 in terms of how they can meaningfully challenge a fighter (compare one to a tarrasque or dragon and note the disparity) anyways.

 

[Thanee]

I would say that Gestalt advances LA by +1 per 5 levels.

However, LA is not CR.

CR for a Monk|Fighter... yeah +1 or +2.

A Cleric|Fighter would be more like +3 or +4, though, I think.


And I agree with Runestar, that he would likely be no more than CR 15 effectively.
A single 15th-level wizard would most likely take him out with ease.

Bye
Thanee

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Perhaps a single mage could kill him, but still, this is to threaten a whole party. He may end up effectively CR 15-16, but if he has a means to reliably get off his full attack flurry and has Improved Natural Attack, maybe some other feats like Snap Kick... I could see a gestalt monk/fighter being able to mow through even a tough character's hp in a single round of devastation.

 

[Runestar]

I could see a gestalt monk/fighter being able to mow through even a tough character's hp in a single round of devastation.

Which isn't really that different from the other cr16+ foes I have run...

Granted, that creature in question was an elder elemental with 5 lvs in warblade, with access to maneuvers like diamond blade nightmare and time stands still...but still...

 

[Drowbane]

CR (iirc, I rarely use it as anything more than a crude measuring stick) is based on the notion that CR X is a suitable challenge for four level X PCs. There is no way a Monk | Fighter 21 can really expect to put up a challenge for four level 21 PCs (unless of course the M|F is totally powergamed and the PCs are subpar).