Gestalt CR?

[Voadam]

Hello there, everyone! It's been some time since I last posted here, but I'm going to try and be more punctual in updating my posts!

Anyway, I need a few hints on setting CR for a Gestalt character (from Unearthed Arcana). More to the point, one of my new campaign's greatest villains will be a Level 21 Monk/Fighter Gestalt, whom my PC will possibly be facing before reaching Epic levels. In your opinion, what should be a good estimate for such a character's CR?

Thanks for any answer!

"Obviously, this variant results in characters who are significantly more powerful than is standard. But how much more powerful? The simple answer-that gestalt characters are twice as powerful as standard characters—isn’t accurate. Gestalt characters don’t have an advantage in the most important game currency: available actions. Even a character who can fight like a barbarian and cast spells like a sorcerer can’t do both in the same round. A gestalt character can’t be in two places at once as two separate characters can be. Gestalt characters who try to fulfill two party roles (melee fighter and spellcaster, for example) find they must split their feat choices, ability score improvements, and gear selection between their two functions.

While a gestalt character isn’t as powerful as two characters of equal level, a gestalt character is more powerful than a standard character."

So less of a CR increase than when you face two NPCs of the same level.

 

[Voadam]

And I agree with Runestar, that he would likely be no more than CR 15 effectively.
A single 15th-level wizard would most likely take him out with ease.

Bye
Thanee

How?

SR 31 means SR spells fail 3/4 times.

Improved evasion with good reflex saves at level 21 so base +12 from class alone.

Good will save so again +12.

If he's going the buffed out monk route he likely has an amazing touch as well as normal AC.

You can't even get him with cloudkill as he is immune to poisons.

I expect him to have amazing grapple checks.

Summoned monsters will have to get past his DR when they do hit him.

I'd happily take the NPC gestalt monk/fighter 21 against a 15 PC wizard.

 

[Runestar]

The wizard could fly over the monk, cast PAO on a uranium beachball and let it drop. I can't recall the specifics off-hand (it was used in a "kill the tarrasque" challenge), but should be capable of dealing 1 million damage and 1d4 fire damage. And falling objects technically don't allow saves and ignore AC...

 

[irdeggman]

In 3e monsters are still made differently than PCs, they use different default stat arrays, can use classes that are not available to PCs, have powers that are unavailable to PCs, have different wealth guidelines, etc.

Not true.

There are monster races and classes that use feats and abilities from the MM.

Warlocks specifically can take any of the feats listed in the MM for spell like abilities.

Patently absurd argument

In 3e D&D PCs should be balanced against each other, not against their opposition. Opposition NPCs are not equal options to the PCs, they are made more or less powerful at the DMs discretion to provide different challenges for the PCs to face.

It may be absurd but it is true. 4th ed went back to the "old ways" but 3.5 is "different".

The gestalt section itself specifically says don't make all NPCs the same as the PCs even when you make important NPCs gestalt just like PCs.

"NPCs
An important aspect of most campaigns is verisimilitude—which is centered on the notion that everything in the campaign world is obeying the same set of rules. Accordingly, any important NPCs in your game should also be gestalt characters. It’s probably not necessary to have low-level noncombatant NPCs pick two classes, but any NPCs above 1st level should be constructed as gestalt characters. (NPCs with levels only in NPC classes-adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, and warrior-can remain standard characters.)"

The UA is talking about gestalt as a variant rule for PCs.

The OP is talking about using the rules from gestalt on a single NPC boss villain.

And I am saying that allowing an NPC to use rules designed for PCs and not to allow the PCs to use those same rules is basically against the grain of what 3.5 is based upon.

All characters advance the same whether they are NPCs or not. They have the same limit on max skill ranks, they get a feat every 3rd level (based on HD), they get an ability score increase every 4th level (again based on HD). Gestalt breaks those rules wide open (and even says it does)

 

[Thanee]

How?

Easily.

At this level some spells take single targets out without even offering a save... and SR is no protection at all, anymore, unless it's ridiculously high.

SR 31 means SR spells fail 3/4 times.

Assay Spell Resistance plus some caster level bonuses makes that more like 10~20% failure chance. Add in Greater Spell Penetration and it's 0%.

Improved evasion with good reflex saves at level 21 so base +12 from class alone.

Yeah, using spells that target Reflex would be rather foolish.

Good will save so again +12.

Saves don't matter.

If he's going the buffed out monk route he likely has an amazing touch as well as normal AC.

Nothing a quickened True Strike cannot handle, though.

You can't even get him with cloudkill as he is immune to poisons.

He can also use Dimension Door or something similar, IIRC, so the Force Cage route isn't all that great a choice, anyways.

I expect him to have amazing grapple checks.

Yep, maybe not better than a Wizard with Draconic Polymorph (those size and strength bonuses can get rather insane), but still ok.

But the bigger problem is, that grappling doesn't help, unless you also happen to have an Antimagic Aura.

Summoned monsters will have to get past his DR when they do hit him.

Summoned monsters are distractions, they are not really able to take down serious threats.

I'd happily take the NPC gestalt monk/fighter 21 against a 15 PC wizard.

That would be rather pointless, I'm afraid, as you would have a monk|fighter specifically geared to take on a wizard and nothing else, against a wizard totally prepared for nothing but a monk|fighter.

Bye
Thanee

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Easily.

At this level some spells take single targets out without even offering a save... and SR is no protection at all, anymore, unless it's ridiculously high.

Assay Spell Resistance plus some caster level bonuses makes that more like 10~20% failure chance. Add in Greater Spell Penetration and it's 0%.

Agreed, but this can be reduced if you force the wizard to drain his spell resources beforehand. And Assay Spell Resistance would be a good example of why decoys are useful to a villain. It's likely to get cast on round 1, and if the wizard didn't prepare any more and doesn't have a pearl of power, problem solved.

Yeah, using spells that target Reflex would be rather foolish.

Nothing a quickened True Strike cannot handle, though.

Blatantness is often a factor in how useful a save will be. The wizard will see the robe, sandals, and martial arts, and will probably avoid area reflex spells entirely. This is why you should look to variants. Complete Mage has one to to swap Evasion for the ability to turn ranged touch spells back on the caster. That could be a nasty surprise.
Of course, with a monk, ranged touch also looks bad, but if the Wizard gets an idea like Thanee's...it's more likely to be used than Evasion at any rate.

Saves don't matter.

I love 3E! (NOT being sarcastic!)

He can also use Dimension Door or something similar, IIRC, so the Force Cage route isn't all that great a choice, anyways.

Yes, definitely don't use the Abundant Step frivolously. Save it for emergencies.

Yep, maybe not better than a Wizard with Draconic Polymorph (those size and strength bonuses can get rather insane), but still ok.

But the bigger problem is, that grappling doesn't help, unless you also happen to have an Antimagic Aura.

Actually, any time the enemy outnumbers you, grappling is an awful idea. Heck, even if he has a bunch of minions around, the PCs are all powerful and will look at him grappling and see "oh look, a guy with lots of dex bonuses to AC giving them up." The Rogue will see "free sneak attack!" So, they'll gang up on him regardless. Grappling is a bad idea for a solo boss or solo boss with weak allies. It can be done if you instead have 2-4 powerful bad guys.

Summoned monsters are distractions, they are not really able to take down serious threats.

But they can't hope to penetrate his DR by much, and he will be able to effortlessly tumble past them, so the won't even be much of a distraction. Also, by level 21, he'd better have some means of flight. There's just no excuse at that point.



Another good general trick would be going ethereal (class feature) +ghost touch property (enhanced on a gauntlet/shoe, weapon, weapon crystal, gauntlet of ghost fighting, ghost shroud, whatever the source).

If nothing else, the villain should have enough escape/survival tricks to inflict some quick pain and leave. If you actually manage to quivering palm a PC and then leave, it could create a plot hook where the party has to do a task for him in order for him to not kill the character. Perhaps not if revivification magic is cheap and plentiful, but it's a thought. Another possibility is to not announce to the players that you used quivering palm and instead leave his abrupt withdrawal a mystery. They find out why when they encounter him days or weeks later under either more favorable circumstances for him or what seem to be favorable circumstances for them as he opens up this "real" fight by willing the PC to die. Conveniently a free action, so he doesn't have to relent his attack as he does so.

 

[Thanee]

Agreed, but this can be reduced if you force the wizard to drain his spell resources beforehand. And Assay Spell Resistance would be a good example of why decoys are useful to a villain. It's likely to get cast on round 1, and if the wizard didn't prepare any more and doesn't have a pearl of power, problem solved.

That's why I prefer Sorcerers... you never run into such problems (only countless others).


But all in all, yeah, looking at the two in a vacuum really makes little sense, as that is not what is going to happen.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Voadam]

Easily.

At this level some spells take single targets out without even offering a save... and SR is no protection at all, anymore, unless it's ridiculously high.

I own but am not that familiar with spell compendium. You already noted how forcecage won't work, what other spells take out a single target no save?

Assay Spell Resistance plus some caster level bonuses makes that more like 10~20% failure chance. Add in Greater Spell Penetration and it's 0%.

I usually don't think about assay spell resistance that much, it got house ruled in the high level game I play in to be either a swift action +10 on one spell and then another version that is something else. I forget what the book version is like. Is it a swift spell that lasts 1 round/level giving +10 on penetration? +level on penetration?

Yeah, using spells that target Reflex would be rather foolish.



Saves don't matter.



Nothing a quickened True Strike cannot handle, though.

Sure, assuming he hits with his quickened true strike ray what ranged touch effect are you going with? Metamagicked enervations or scorching rays? Non-core stuff?

He can also use Dimension Door or something similar, IIRC, so the Force Cage route isn't all that great a choice, anyways.



Yep, maybe not better than a Wizard with Draconic Polymorph (those size and strength bonuses can get rather insane), but still ok.
But the bigger problem is, that grappling doesn't help, unless you also happen to have an Antimagic Aura.

I had in mind that evards would not be a great impediment to the monk, not that he would grapple the wizard.

Summoned monsters are distractions, they are not really able to take down serious threats.


That would be rather pointless, I'm afraid, as you would have a monk|fighter specifically geared to take on a wizard and nothing else, against a wizard totally prepared for nothing but a monk|fighter.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I own but am not that familiar with spell compendium. You already noted how forcecage won't work, what other spells take out a single target no save?

Otto's Irresistible Dance for example.

Forcecage + Dimensional Lock also works, but requires some serious tools to make that happen in one round.

I usually don't think about assay spell resistance that much, it got house ruled in the high level game I play in to be either a swift action +10 on one spell and then another version that is something else. I forget what the book version is like. Is it a swift spell that lasts 1 round/level giving +10 on penetration? +level on penetration?

Swift +10 to Penetration for 1rd/lvl against the target.

Sure, assuming he hits with his quickened true strike ray what ranged touch effect are you going with? Metamagicked enervations or scorching rays? Non-core stuff?

Otto's Irresistible Dance for example.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Voadam]

But all in all, yeah, looking at the two in a vacuum really makes little sense, as that is not what is going to happen.

Bye
Thanee

I think that's particularly true for spellcasters. What high level magic they have available during the encounter will make a huge impact on whether the BBEG steamrolls them or the reverse.

If it is a core only game for PC options then the wizard has to do things like quickened true strike with metamagicked enervation or scorching ray to reliably directly affect the monk. If the wizard is an enchanter for example then he has to use his backup arsenal or hope the monk fails his SR and good will save. With noncore sourcebook stuff I'm sure the options increase.