Gestalt Madness

[Limper]

How do you handle a Gestalt character who qualifies for MysticThuerge as well as Cerebremancer? Now it makes sense that they don't get two levels or arcane progression in a single quailifying class at each level of progression correct?

Its amazing the sort of conundrums that one thinks of whilst stuck in traffic.



Do you have an answer or do you have a conundrum of your own?

 

[Crothian]

I wouldn't allow either class for Gestalts, it is realyl that simple. Adding two optioan rules together is not always a good idea.

 

[Dracomeander]

There's always point three in handling advancement for gestalt characters.

From Unearthed Arcana:
"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level."

It goes on to say that prestige classes that are essentially combined classes, like the mystic theurge or the eldritch knight, should not be allowed into a gestalt character progression.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

That and doesn't UA mention that combined classes (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster) don't exist in gestalt games?

 

[Limper]

I wouldn't allow either class for Gestalts, it is realyl that simple. Adding two optioan rules together is not always a good idea.

I figured the best way to balance this character is to give a 3 minute time limit on them figuring out what they are going to do for the round... if they aren't ready when we get to them then we move on thier character is lost in its own mystic potential.

I was also thinking of having NPCs trying to get tissue and organ samples from them, I mean in all the multiverse there can't be many walking power batteries which cross all those mystic wires for power...that would have to make them VERY valuble as power components to mage guilds everywhere.

My original idea was to make a Dragon with this class combo but it was to much paper work for me... I don't mind crunch but when I need to use derivatives in a stat block its to much.

 

[Limper]

There's always point three in handling advancement for gestalt characters.

From Unearthed Arcana:
"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level."

It goes on to say that prestige classes that are essentially combined classes, like the mystic theurge or the eldritch knight, should not be allowed into a gestalt character progression.

Must have missed that. Sadly the game is underway so it requires damage control now.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

That and doesn't UA mention that combined classes (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster) don't exist in gestalt games?

I believe it mentions that they're a spectacularly bad idea, and *should* not be allowed, but, it's not a hard and fast banning. And, of course, a DM can always allow them if s/he so chooses.

Were I, wearing a goatee in a parallel universe, to allow that, I'd require that the "other" class not be related at all to either of the preceding classes. I.e, if you did Rogue/Sorc and wanted to do Arcane Trickster, you couldn't take either at the same level as Arcane Trickster.

"Sure, Bob, I'll let you take Fighter and Arcane Trickster for your next level. Heh, heh, heh..."

Brad

 

[Thanee]

The One Man Adventuring Party™

01: Sorcerer / Ranger - +1 BAB +2 Fort, Ref, Will d8 HD 6+Int(x4) SP
02: Sorcerer / Cleric - +1 BAB +2 Fort, Will d8 HD 2+Int SP
03: Sorcerer / Cleric - +1 BAB +1 Ref d8 HD 2+Int SP
04: Sorcerer / Cleric - +1 BAB +1 Fort, Will d8 HD 2+Int SP
05: Mystic Theurge / Fighter - +1 BAB +2 Fort, Will d10 HD 2+Int SP
06: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB +1 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 Will d6 HD 8+Int SP
07: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB d6 HD 8+Int SP
08: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB +1 Ref, Will d6 HD 8+Int SP
09: Mystic Theurge / Fighter - +1 BAB +1 Ref d10 HD 2+Int SP
10: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB +1 Ref, Will d6 HD 8+Int SP
11: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB d6 HD 8+Int SP
12: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB +1 Fort, Ref, Will d6 HD 8+Int SP
13: Mystic Theurge / Fighter - +1 BAB d10 HD 2+Int SP
14: Mystic Theurge / Rogue - +1 BAB +1 Ref, Will d6 HD 8+Int SP
15: Arcane Trickster / Cleric - +1 BAB +2 Ref, Will d8 HD 4+Int SP
16: Arcane Trickster / Cleric - +1 BAB +1 Fort, Ref, Will d8 HD 4+ Int SP
17: Arcane Trickster / Fighter - +1 BAB d10 HD 4+Int SP
18: Arcane Trickster / Cleric - +1 BAB +1 Fort, Ref, Will d8 HD 4+Int SP
19: Arcane Trickster / Cleric - +1 BAB d8 HD 4+Int SP
20: Arcane Trickster / Cleric - +1 BAB +1 Fort, Ref, Will d8 HD 4+Int SP

Here's an example, why they warn specifically about using PrC like Mystic Theurge in combination with the Gestalt rules (not entirely sure, if the saves are done right, tho).


Damage Control: Talk with the player (and tell him/her that you did not know about these restrictions (1) only one PrC per Gestalt level, 2) no "fix multiclassing" PrC - both are in the rules, tho)) and let him/her remake the character.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Were I, wearing a goatee in a parallel universe, to allow that, I'd require that the "other" class not be related at all to either of the preceding classes. I.e, if you did Rogue/Sorc and wanted to do Arcane Trickster, you couldn't take either at the same level as Arcane Trickster.

Actually... taking unrelated classes seems to be the most powerful way with Gestalt.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

If the player really wants to be competent with all three forms of FX, you could still allow the multiclassing patches, as long as they agreed to the following progression (or something similar):

1  Cleric/Psion
2  Cleric/Wizard
3  Wizard/Psion (caster/manifester level 2nd in each class)
4  Cleric/Psion
5  Wizard/Psychic Theurge (Cleric 4, Psion 4, Wizard 3)
6  Psion/Mystic Theurge
7  Cleric/Cerebremancer
8  Wizard/Psychic Theurge
9  Psion/Mystic Theurge
10 Cleric/Cerebremancer
11 Wizard/Psychic Theurge
12 Psion/Mystic Theurge
13 Cleric/Cerebremancer
14 Wizard/Psychic Theurge
15 Psion/Mystic Theurge
16 Cleric/Cerebremancer
17 Wizard/Psychic Theurge
18 Psion/Mystic Theurge
19 Cleric/Cerebremancer
20 Wizard/Psychic Theurge

End up with the casting/manifesting abilities of a Cleric 19/Psion 19/Wizard 18. You can weaken this by forcing the use of Wilder and spontaneous casters, since it delays the "patch" classes by one level in each class. Another way to limit its power is to force the character into MAD by splitting up casting stats or using dual-casters.

Favored Soul/Sorceror/Wilder limits the number of spells and powers known and delays acquisition of the patch classes, which can make the character more managable, but it does put all of the heavy lifting on Charisma.

It also allows the character to always have at least a d6 HD and 3/4 BAB, keeps the caster levels even, and hits 18th level.

1  Favored Soul/Wilder
2  Favored Soul/Sorceror
3  Sorceror/Wilder
4  Favored Soul/Wilder
5  Favored Soul/Sorceror
6  Sorceror/Wilder (caster/manifester 4 in all classes)
7  Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
8  Wilder/Mystic Theurge
9  Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
10 Wilder/Mystic Theurge
11 Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
12 Wilder/Mystic Theurge
13 Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
14 Wilder/Mystic Theurge
15 Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
16 Wilder/Mystic Theurge
17 Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
18 Wilder/Mystic Theurge
19 Favored Soul/Cerebremancer
20 Wilder/Mystic Theurge

All of these progressions probably end up more powerful than you intend, even though the character will have limited actions-- after all, they can still only cast or manifest once per round, most of the time. On the other hand, it also allows a character to cherry-pick the best divine and psionic buffs, use them at the beginning of the day...

Your best option, as DM, is to simply allow the character to keep alternating between the three possible combinations. They'll lose a lot of caster levels, but they'll still have all-day casting capability. On the other hand, using Warmage as one of the classes will also eventually allow the character to wear Medium Armor...