Gestalt Villains - Non-Gestalt PC's

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Has anyone tried this? Gestalt Villains with Non-Gestalt (normal) PC's?

If so, how'd it work out?

Thoughts/Questions/Comments?

 

[Zurai]

As long as you're careful, it should work out OK. Gestalt isn't as huge a power jump as a lot of people think it is, unless you completely munchkinize it. As the DM, I'd hope you wouldn't be completely munchkinizing your villains

Used appropriately, it can add a lot of flavor to villains and give them some cool otherwise unattainable synergistic abilities without actually increasing their power by more than a couple CR levels.

 

[Li Shenron]

You would obviously need to apply a CR increase. But I think it would depend on the exact class combination. A Wizard/Sorcerer is perhaps not much better than a +1, but a Barbarian/Sorcerer or a Paladin/Sorcerer could be definitely more.

 

[Maldor]

i would never give a NPC any ability that PC's could never have
if you gave them the option to play one at a LA and they chose not to then just give the bad guy tthe LA to his CR

 

[kaomera]

Gestalting is a good way to make an otherwise underpowered NPC more of a challenge, IMHO. Personally I disagree that it should automatically be worth a CR increase, and I don't think it's unfair to treat NPCs differently than PCs, but I think this is a case where player expectations are very important. If your players are going to expect mechanical parity in this area, then they aren't likely to enjoy going up against an NPC that has abilities that aren't available to them, and therefore you're best off not applying Gestalt (or other modifications) to an NPC if you aren't allowing it for PCs. But consider that NPCs already don't have to deal with level adjustment; there is a built-in assumption that since NPCs do not stand in the spotlight the way that PCs do many abilities are much less useful to them.

The biggest consideration is (as often is the case with D&D) actions. A Gestalt Fighter / Cleric isn't any better than a straight Fighter if she never gets to use any of her Clerical abilities. This generally means allowing the NPC enough warning that at least a couple of buff-spells can be cast, and opportunities for healing. But I think you should also consider providing opportunities for the PCs to avoid both of those possibilities. Can they sneak up on the NPC, or delay / kill any minions rushing to warn that the party is about to show up for the final encounter? Can they spot and cut off the bolt-hole that she's planning on using to get out of the line of fire long enough to heal / re-buff and return for round two?

Obviously a lot of this is going to depend on which classes you are planning on Gestalting. If you're going for Fighter / Sorcerer strictly for the extra hit points / Fort save and plan on simply blasting the party with spells, then that's a lot less complicated (and probably calls for a bit of a CR increase).

 

[Nifft]

It's a nice idea. I'd think you could simply boost the CR by +1 to +2, given that simply adding a whole other NPC at the same level would be a CR +2 boost, and Gestalt is not as good as adding a whole other NPC.

If you do it right, you'll have very survivable villains who can't kill more PCs than they previously could, but can make saves that traditional villains would fail terribly.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Thanks, everyone.

I have a story idea in mind that handles the reasoning why only certain NPC's can Gestalt. It's borrowed from the idea of the Firsts in the Iron Heroes Swordlands game setting. Basically, there's something special about the creation/origin of the NPC's in question that allows them to be Gestalts.

And, it's not going to be available to the PC's as an option, unless they have a special background that justifies it (which 99.9% will not).

 

[Zurai]

And, it's not going to be available to the PC's as an option, unless they have a special background that justifies it (which 99.9% will not).

Don't ever allow it unless you allow it for every player. Don't even leave a chink in the armor - just say no outright. While Gestalt isn't a dramatic power shift in most cases, it will still unbalance a party if some are gestalt and some aren't.

Also, I'd make sure your players have no issues with the DM "cheating" on his villains before you used it. I know I personally get really irritated when the DM uses rules that I do not have access to as a player; it wouldn't make me leave a game, but it'd leave a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Don't ever allow it unless you allow it for every player. Don't even leave a chink in the armor - just say no outright. While Gestalt isn't a dramatic power shift in most cases, it will still unbalance a party if some are gestalt and some aren't.

I can see that point.

Only one in a thousand characters would have that option, anyway. It's not likely to occur at all.

 

[Nifft]

Only one in a thousand characters would have that option, anyway. It's not likely to occur at all.

That's not relevant to how balanced it would be. IMHO you should just say no.

I remember in 1e when characters died early & often, and 1e Psionics was "balanced" due to it being so random and so rare. Except it wasn't. Why not? Because PCs who were unexceptional died in droves, and the ones who were exceptional tended to survive. That's not a dynamic I wish to encourage.

Cheers, -- N