Gestalt Villains - Non-Gestalt PC's

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Also, I'd make sure your players have no issues with the DM "cheating" on his villains before you used it. I know I personally get really irritated when the DM uses rules that I do not have access to as a player; it wouldn't make me leave a game, but it'd leave a sour taste in my mouth.

[sarcasm]
I cheat as a DM all the time.

I make up NPC villains at various levels above 1st without ever playing them to gain the experience points to advance to that level. Sometimes, I add monsters to published adventures that aren't listed in the roster and I usually don't bother explaining why they're there. Sometimes I have NPC's with class levels of races that I will not allow PC's to play. I do all kinds of things that the players cannot do with their characters.
[/sarcasm]

DM's should cheat for the good of the story. I don't believe DM's need to "play fair." Playing fun is more important.

That said, if I do allow for Gestalt NPC's, I'll allow a way for PC's to become Gestalts. I'll probably change the multiclassing rules to work in a semi-gestalt style so that it will reward single classing more so than it does, already.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

That's not relevant to how balanced it would be. IMHO you should just say no.

Thanks. That's probably what I'll do because it would work better story-wise.

I remember in 1e when characters died early & often, and 1e Psionics was "balanced" due to it being so random and so rare. Except it wasn't. Why not? Because PCs who were unexceptional died in droves, and the ones who were exceptional tended to survive. That's not a dynamic I wish to encourage.

Psionics were extremely rare in my AD&D campaigns. No villains ever had them and only about 2 DMPC's had them. And, they didn't last long.

We almost never bothered to play average PC's, either. If the character didn't have at least two 18's, we re-rolled the scores. 18/00 was a mandatory strength score for any fighter type class. If anything, we cheated in favor of the players too much. But, boy, was it fun!!!

 

[Zurai]

[sarcasm]
I cheat as a DM all the time.

I make up NPC villains at various levels above 1st without ever playing them to gain the experience points to advance to that level. Sometimes, I add monsters to published adventures that aren't listed in the roster and I usually don't bother explaining why they're there. Sometimes I have NPC's with class levels of races that I will not allow PC's to play. I do all kinds of things that the players cannot do with their characters.
[/sarcasm]

DM's should cheat for the good of the story. I don't believe DM's need to "play fair." Playing fun is more important.

Those aren't cheating.

I won't get into detail here, because I've already done it elsewhere in the forum, but it boils down to handicaps vs changing the rules. Gestalt is changing the rules; non-1st-level villains barely even qualifies as a handicap. I didn't say you shouldn't make your villains Gestalt - look at my first post in the thread, after all - just that you should make sure your players realize that you are using rules for your villians that are denied to them.

I never said you needed to play fair. I just said to make sure your players realized you weren't playing fair. As you said, playing fun is more important - and if you have a player whose fun is ruined by you NOT playing fair, by your own words, that is more important.

You know your players - I don't even know who they are. It's in your hands. I was just offering casual advice. Take it or leave it, but there's no need to get snarky over it.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

My apologies for sounding "snarky" to you.

That's why I put all that in the [sarcasm] tags. It was all in jest. I know what you are saying and I appreciate it.

To use this idea of Gestalt Villains with normal PC's will require a good story-wise reason to do so. Otherwise, it's flat-out cheating. But, if the story justifies it, it's fair whether the PC's can be gestalts or not.

From a balance perspective, I don't think it will throw things off all that much. The gestalt villains will be worth a little more XP than standard villains.

Again, my apologies.

 

[Zurai]

My apologies for sounding "snarky" to you.

That's why I put all that in the [sarcasm] tags. It was all in jest. I know what you are saying and I appreciate it.

Ah, no problem then. I in turn apologize to you for getting defensive about it.

 

[Nifft]

PCs and monsters can use the same rules, but use them differently.

What you should NEVER do is introduce "trumps" which PCs can't have. For example, if you have a Monk PC, you shouldn't give the NPC bad guy a Feat called "Ignore Stunning Fist".

Gestalt doesn't actually do anything the PCs can't do -- you're not introducing power into the game, you're just giving an NPC better defenses and a lot more tactical options. He won't be much stronger on offense than a normal single-class NPC. He certainly won't be as tough as two NPCs of his same level! Since two NPCs are worth CR (level +2), I'd say a good estimate for the average good Gestalt is level +1.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

PCs and monsters can use the same rules, but use them differently.

What you should NEVER do is introduce "trumps" which PCs can't have. For example, if you have a Monk PC, you shouldn't give the NPC bad guy a Feat called "Ignore Stunning Fist".

Thanks, Nifft. I agree with that. Definitely.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Gestalt doesn't actually do anything the PCs can't do -- you're not introducing power into the game, you're just giving an NPC better defenses and a lot more tactical options. He won't be much stronger on offense than a normal single-class NPC. He certainly won't be as tough as two NPCs of his same level! Since two NPCs are worth CR (level +2), I'd say a good estimate for the average good Gestalt is level +1.

I agree. +1 to CR is what I was considering in most cases. Maybe +2 in really good combinations.

Also, not every villain will be a Gestalt. Only villains with the appropriate background story.