Gestalting with monster levels. Has it been done?

[interwyrm]

That's why I don't give the LA reduction to Outsiders. Outsider HD are about as good as full classes by themselves, but any Outsider worth its weight in HD will have a large LA to balance it out.

I'd allow them to use Monster classes, with the understanding that they only get to Gestalt levels that give them HD.

One of the more interesting builds I've seen is Doppleganger/Rogue 4 || Rogue/Mindspy 5 || Rogue/Warshaper 5. It's well worth the +3 LA.

Monstrous humanoid is nearly as good as outsider levels, and the LA is often much less.
Also, the erinyes is the only outsider that I found to be *really good*. Most of the others are not given LA's because it would make them epic I suppose, or they are simply not suitable (wish as a spell like ability). Hmm... Vrock and Hezrou might warrant a second look, I don't think I really looked at those. Anyways... the succubus is overestimated. Succubi get nothing all that great for their +6 la. They will have serious survivability issues with the +2 con bonus they get.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I force my players to use monster hit dice and LA in the same vein so say it is werewolf you would have to use all 7 levels all in the same vein. This can make some pretty potent fighters, or some very dexterious rogues.

I agree with this as well. In my case, it's based on the Monster's Favored Class-- any Monster PC should excel at their racial Favored Class (since they have HD) before they move into free multiclassing. It requires a couple of FC shifts to make sense, but otherwise it's a beautiful thing.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Monstrous humanoid is nearly as good as outsider levels, and the LA is often much less.

I really haven't seen any Monstrous Humanoid whose MH levels qualify. Few skill points, limited saves, 3/4 BAB.

Compare that to Outsiders which get +1 BAB, three good saves, and eight skill points.

Anyways... the succubus is overestimated. Succubi get nothing all that great for their +6 la. They will have serious survivability issues with the +2 con bonus they get.

Unlimited detect thoughts and alter self is pretty solid. They're Doppleganger-plus and Outsider HD are better than MH (Shapechanger). The only advantage I see Doppleganger having over the Succubus is that I give all Outsiders Cleric as Favored.

Succubi are also qualified for Blackguard out-of-the-box, which takes beautiful advantage of their +16 Charisma. Three levels of Rogue/Hexblade first-- unless they got those levels with their Outsider HD-- and they're immune to most sources of damage that don't require the attacker to be within Divine Might range.

 

[Zzyzx]

Korimyr, Monstrous Humanoid get full BAB, no?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Korimyr, Monstrous Humanoid get full BAB, no?

I stand corrected.

But full BAB, good Reflex and Will, and 2 skills per level is still less than good BAB, all three good saves, and eight skills per level.

For comparison, the Warrior is full BAB, good Fortitude, and 2 skills per level.

 

[interwyrm]

I really haven't seen any Monstrous Humanoid whose MH levels qualify. Few skill points, limited saves, 3/4 BAB.

Compare that to Outsiders which get +1 BAB, three good saves, and eight skill points.

Unlimited detect thoughts and alter self is pretty solid. They're Doppleganger-plus and Outsider HD are better than MH (Shapechanger). The only advantage I see Doppleganger having over the Succubus is that I give all Outsiders Cleric as Favored.

Succubi are also qualified for Blackguard out-of-the-box, which takes beautiful advantage of their +16 Charisma. Three levels of Rogue/Hexblade first-- unless they got those levels with their Outsider HD-- and they're immune to most sources of damage that don't require the attacker to be within Divine Might range.

I didn't mean to imply that monstrous humanoid levels were *as good as* outsider levels, just they are almost as good as. Monstrous Humanoid level adjustments are typically 1/2 to 1/3 of a typical Outsider LA, and their combat capabilities are usually as good. This is important to me because typically a race with an LA is best used as a fighter type - usually a melee combatant, with the rare exception of a good archer race (like pixies).

I can't see how the succubus would be all that great unless it's in a less hackandslash more diplomatic campaign. Even if the succubus is a rogue2/hexblade2/blackguard x (at which point it is seriously high level, a couple well placed arrows will utterly destroy her. What can she do in return? Kiss them? In a typical game, I can't justify making the LA more than 4 for the succubus, and even then I'd have issues with playing one, simply because their major bonus is in charisma, and that does very little for the combat prowess of non-sorcerer non-bards.

A sucubus marshal maybe. I could see that.

 

[gabrion]

I can't see how the succubus would be all that great unless it's in a less hackandslash more diplomatic campaign. Even if the succubus is a rogue2/hexblade2/blackguard x (at which point it is seriously high level, a couple well placed arrows will utterly destroy her. What can she do in return? Kiss them? In a typical game, I can't justify making the LA more than 4 for the succubus, and even then I'd have issues with playing one, simply because their major bonus is in charisma, and that does very little for the combat prowess of non-sorcerer non-bards.

A sucubus marshal maybe. I could see that.

Well the thing is, there are tons of ways to use CHA in combat oriented builds. Many classes, feats, abilities, etc., add CHA to such things as attack, AC, damage, AC, saves, AC, saves, and so forth. Yes, it would have to be a high level character, but you're talking about a monstrous race that starts with at ECL 12.

 

[Drowbane]

Yep, been there. Back when Gestalt was all shiny and new I rolled up a Mindflayer (15) / Rogue 3 | Telepath 18 for a High level game. Ahh, good times.

It has been pointed out that the Ghaele Eladrin and a few others from Savage Species are choice for Gestalting this way. The Ghaele gives a boatload of free goodies, as well as full clerical spell progression! One of the archons gives cleric spells at +2 higher than your archon side's level!

Gestalting with LA and Monster Races isn't for the Wuss of Heart. If you quiver at the thought of anything powergamed, this concept probably isn't for you.

As to the thought that LA seems weak if you only apply it to one side... Yeah, so? LA tends to be overly nerfing anyways. YMMV

 

[Storyteller01]

We have someone looking into a dragon (black)/sorcerer build, using a 20 level dragon progression from dragon mag. Any ideas or warnings I should hear?

 

[epicycloid]

Monstrous humanoid is nearly as good as outsider levels, and the LA is often much less.
Also, the erinyes is the only outsider that I found to be *really good*. Most of the others are not given LA's because it would make them epic I suppose, or they are simply not suitable (wish as a spell like ability). Hmm... Vrock and Hezrou might warrant a second look, I don't think I really looked at those. Anyways... the succubus is overestimated. Succubi get nothing all that great for their +6 la. They will have serious survivability issues with the +2 con bonus they get.

I don't know, maybe it's the Charm monster, Suggestion & Greater teleport abilities at will - starting at DC 22 for an average looking Succubus.
I imagine with max Cha, magic & feats you could make it low 30's.