Get pedantic on Feeblemind

[PallidPatience]

When Imbue with Spell Ability is discharged, the spell slot is returned. When Dispel Magic is applied to Imbue with Spell Ability, it ends as though discharged (as far as I can tell). Therefore, when Dispel Magic is applied to Imbue with Spell Ability, the spell slot is returned.

THAT language is imprecise through omission of such a vital detail. Feeblemind's is not imprecise at all. As far as arguing Feeblemind is concerned, though, I'm not arguing any further. It's been made clear that we're using different dictionaries.

 

[Artoomis]

...It's been made clear that we're using different dictionaries.

No, I do not think that is the problem. The fact (that is seemingly ignored from the "until" side of this debate) is that WotC repeatedly uses the word "only " in a very loose, non-exclusive way in many other spell descriptions. What indication is there that this is the one place we should take it seriously and exclude everything not on "the list?"

 

[glass]

It is clear from the above examples that WotC editors did not intend the word "until" to be taken as a absolute qualifier. It many cases the rules break down if you do so.

Ah, so you are talking about intent? I thought we'd been discussing the RAW for the last 10 pages!


glass.

 

[Artoomis]

Ah, so you are talking about intent? I thought we'd been discussing the RAW for the last 10 pages!


glass.

Q. Is the word "until" as a precise term in the PHB?
A. No. Many, examples when above make this clear.

Q. Is the "until" list in Feeblemind an "exclusive" list of all possible remedies for the state of "Feeblemindedness?"
A. No, it cannot be. The word "until" has no precedent within the rules for being used in such a precise manner. There is no valid reason to assume it is being used that way here.

Further, of course, the list is not even complete, leaving out at least Mass Heal, Heal Mount and any possibility for expansion material. Of course, one can logically assume such an expansion of the list is implied, I suppose, but that opens the door to other possible expansions of the list.

 

[Deset Gled]

Q. Is the word "until" as a precise term in the PHB?
A. No. Many, examples when above make this clear.
...
There is no valid reason to assume it is being used that way here.

Let's do the time warp again!

 

[glass]

Ah, so you are talking about intent? I thought we'd been discussing the RAW for the last 10 pages!

Q. Is the word "until" as a precise term in the PHB?
A. No. Many, examples when above make this clear.

Q. Is the "until" list in Feeblemind an "exclusive" list of all possible remedies for the state of "Feeblemindedness?"
A. No, it cannot be. The word "until" has no precedent within the rules for being used in such a precise manner. There is no valid reason to assume it is being used that way here.

Further, of course, the list is not even complete, leaving out at least Mass Heal, Heal Mount and any possibility for expansion material. Of course, one can logically assume such an expansion of the list is implied, I suppose, but that opens the door to other possible expansions of the list.

You didn't answer the question.

So are you talking about the RAW now, and disavowing post No 456?

Or are you talking about the intent, in which case do you conceed that your position is not RAW?


glass.

 

[Artoomis]

You didn't answer the question.

So are you talking about the RAW now, and disavowing post No 456?

Or are you talking about the intent, in which case do you conceed that your position is not RAW?


glass.

ROFL. One cannot discuss core rules RAW without discussing the meaning of the words, as evidenced by how they are used in the core rules.

Quite a few examples have been presented that demonstrate, as used in the PHB, the word "until" is not used as a fully exclusive term.

Therefore the defintion of "until," as used in the PHB, does not include it's use to define 100% exclusivity.

I submit that this is generally true outside of the PHB as well. Generally, in common usage, the word "until" does not define a truly exclusive condition. One normally uses stronger language for that.

 

[glass]

ROFL. One cannot discuss core rules RAW without discussing the meaning of the words, as evidenced by how they are used in the core rules.

One cannot discuss the RAW while making up our own definitions of words to suit our position.

Absent any definition of 'until' in the rules making it a term of art, it means what it means in plain english. And in plain english, the language of feeblemind is exclusive.


glass.

 

[glass]

Therefore the defintion of "until," as used in the PHB, does not include it's use to define 100% exclusivity.

You are still going to intent (and begging the question while you are at it). I ask you again, are you arguing RAW or intent?

I submit that this is generally true outside of the PHB as well. Generally, in common usage, the word "until" does not define a truly exclusive condition. One normally uses stronger language for that.

Well in everyday life, we don't always say exactly what we mean. But we are talking about a rule book. A rulebook by definition means what it says (even if its designers didn't mean it to mean that ).



glass.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You are still going to intent (and begging the question while you are at it). I ask you again, are you arguing RAW or intent?

Those are not mutually exclusive in this case. The intent of using the word "until" in all of the rules is not the same as the intent of the feeblemind spell. He can be arguing the intent of the use of the word until, in general, within the rules and still argue the RAW of feeblemind.