Getting into the Points of Light mindset

The biggest problem I have with PoL is that the classic large (population > 100k) fantasy city doesn't really fit, and it happens to be one of my favorite background locations. You really can't have a character who grew up as an anonymous street urchin who was forced into a band of juvenile thieves and beggars in a town of 1000 people.

Well, maybe. But one could well argue that Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire was a pretty PoL-like setting, and it did have a few large cities.

(Actually, there's lots of inspiration to be had there. I recommend Bernard Cornwell's books about Alfred the Great - see in particular the situation in and around London.)

The key here, though, is that "the city" isn't a Point of Light, it is a cluster of several, with many of the areas between actually being 'Points of Darkness".
 

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The biggest problem I have with PoL is that the classic large (population > 100k) fantasy city doesn't really fit, and it happens to be one of my favorite background locations. You really can't have a character who grew up as an anonymous street urchin who was forced into a band of juvenile thieves and beggars in a town of 1000 people.
I dunno, it works in Dark Sun...
 

True, but the DM may not want a city that large in the vicinity of the starting point of the campaign. Picture the DM going whole hog on PoL. Now a player comes along and says "My character comes from a huge city." What is the DM to do? Accept that this Heroic Tier (probably level 1 or 2) character crossed an entire continent from that city 3000 miles away in spite of the tremendous dangers of the lands in between?

I'm not saying that there is no solution, just that some DMs won't be able to adapt their PoL vision very well to incorporate a huge city.

Despite the best default answer to player questions being yes, there are those times when it makes perfect sense to say no. If logic and story dictate that something can't be, then it isn't. The player in question can have his place of origin provided he's willing to wait until the party hits Paragon, and actually gets there.
 

When I ran the H1-3 campaign I interpreted the PoL as follows-

PCs Level 1-

Started with a Goblin attack on Fallcrest- large band of the creatures attacking the city, one of many roving bands (Bloodreavers)- PCs only had a bit part to play in the action but got scared about the roads.

This resulted in Fallcrest closing the gates, and road travel being difficult in the extreme, large armed caravans only.

PCs had to travel to Winterhaven (a messenger gets through), a few minor encounters, mostly scares- an extended Skill Challenge, followed by the Kobold bandits from H1 hitting early in the game- almost a seperate entity to the rest of the scenario that need to be dealt with first.

PCs complete H1 and manage in the process to free up the road to Fallcrest- they hear about Karavakos.

PCs Level 4-

PCs head out to Thunderpsire, again attacked en route- bandits mostly. I added a fortified Inn on the road (on the spur to Thunderspire). The PCs encountered the inhabitants of the Inn en route to the place, being chased by more Goblins and worse.

PCs have to retake the Inn, and realise in the process that the Goblins in question are more Bloodreavers (they represent the scourge of the Vale- HQ Thunderspire).

PCs then have to hold the Inn as it is beseiged by another group of Dire Wolves, Ogres and more nastier Goblins (and worse). They hold the Inn till the Fallcrest road patrol turns up (heavily armed), the Inn is held.

PCs into Thunderspire, which I levelled up and made the Blooreavers a whole lot nastier (but a cover for the Duergar, and ultimately a cover for Paldemar who manipulated the Bloodreavers et al for... Karavakos). PCs win through- the Vale is a little less PoL.

PCs Level 8-

The lull before the storm- the PCs and the Vale are rescued, much good stuff.

The PCs head back to Fallcrest- and are dragged in to see the Markelhay's, envoys from the Feywild have come across to beg for help- something terrible is happening in the Fell version of Fallcrest (Fellscarp). PCs get tangled up in a strange adventure when the Feywild emmisary is kidnapped in Fallcrest.

Detective style scenario follows, this after one of the PCs slept with the Princess and therefore has a personal reason to want her back- you should have seen his rolls for the Skill Challenge (kidding).

Eventually in the sewers of Fallcrest PCs start encountering many nasties and at the root of it all an Aboleth, which turns out to be a shape-changing Aboleth (and the Princess the PCs are looking for- yes one of the PCs had sex with an Aboleth).

In the final confrontation the Aboleth begs his/her/its PC lover to join with it and rule the Vale, the PC is less keen. The Aboleth is killed and a bunch of illusions fade out- the Aboleth curses the PCs, states its master is here and dies.

Spectral/real/fey plants begin to grow at incredible rate- bursting through the walls of the sewers- the entire place collapses and a Skill Challenge to get out and back to the surface follows.

PCs escape the sewer to discover the entire city of Fallcrest has been crushed/broken/destroyed etc. by this strange plant- the plant turns out to be part Fey part Shadow.

All the citizens of the city have been captured by the quick growing plants- grabbed, injected and placed in a coma, the plants keep the citizens alive (symbiotic)- see Matrix etc..

The PCs hack their way to the Septarch's tower, en route encountering large Preying Mantis, on the docks large water scorpions and terror shrimp (or similar), a gigantic beetle and latter a colossal Slug- which was just a great fight, the thing had a bite that did something like 50+ damage, and an acid style spit- just lovely. All creatures combine shadow and fey traits.

The PCs get to the Septarch's tower, Nimozaran is still alive- the tower is impervious to the magic.

Scrying discovers that the entire Nentir Vale is choked by this Fey/Shadow plant.

The PCs don't know what to do- then the storms start (think the lightning strikes from the last War of the Worlds film)- massiving rolling clouds black out the sun.

A Twister of incredible size rips through Fallcrest, not doing any damage but instead sending the bodies of the citizens spiralling up in to the black.

Then silence followed by a pulsing light within the black above- the black clouds clear a little and floating above the city is the Pyramid of Shadow.

As it turns out the Pyramid was built by Nimozaran who in my game is considerably older than the PCs think- this has been hinted at many times. It was made in conjunction with a mad clan of techno dwarves who built the Dwarforged. One of the PCs has discovered he may be a Dwarforged some time ago.

Nimozaran's teleport circle comes alive when the PC is about, the PC probably is a Dwarforged, regardless he can teleport in to the Pyramid.

The PCs are the only hope for Fallcrest and the Vale, this is my interpretation of the Paragon leap from heroes known by a few to paragons lauded by all the land.

PCs Level 9-

The PCs head up to the Pyramid and kick ass, several of the groups in the Pyramid have already been worked in to the narrative previous- the Feywild (Arboreans) have been known enemies for the last x levels, same for the human bandits up there (lead by a Dragonborn I think, this guy was the ex-head of the Fallcrest guard who tried to kill Markelhay one-day- possessed by the Tiefling king of the Pyramid-Karavakos who has been foreshadowed since forever).

PCs eventually defeat Karavakos, having rescued the Dragonborn (and helped along several of their individual stories- one of the PCs had been playing with the Far Realm when he was young and was responsible for the destruction of the monastery he was studying at- Karavakos again).

Pyramid destroyed- PCs teleport out, the plants wither and die, the citizens reappear and as it turns out the 8 days the PCs spent in the Pyramid equate to 8 months of shadow for the entire Vale.

From there the plot gets complicated, but you can see what I mean- PoL means just that- fight for your life, not even the cities are safe.

At least that was my version.

Sorry for long post but that was my interpretation, I'd tell you about the Paragon stuff but quite frankly I'm going to be using some of it in my present campaign and I don't want my present PCs to read it here. Needless to say the Paragon version of PoL sees the entire Vale transformed and threatened et al.

My latest campaign takes place after The Time of Shadow, the new PCs have just played HS1- Kiris Dahn/Gorizbadd (the ruined town in the module) was destroyed by Goblins (and the plants) during the time of Shadow.

I love a good story me.

Cheers Goonalan
 

Keeping the city fed would be a real challenge, though. Not impossible, but difficult; unless magic was involved, you would only see large cities in the most fertile regions, where the city could keep its farming "footprint" within the reach of its military patrols. And a bad harvest would be a real disaster.

In fact, that could be the basis for an adventure. The harvest has been very poor and the city faces starvation in a matter of months--find a way to feed the populace!

Some information on medieval agriculture as it relates to cities: Feeding Medieval European Cities, 600-1500 by Derek Keene | Institute of Historical Research

Certainly true which is why such a city would make for a good goal to reach, upon attaining Paragon. As you say, odds are they would be using magic in order to keep fed. There are a number of rituals that would be quite useful, in increasing the possible density of agriculture.

Imagine a series of irrigation canals that have been dug out over centuries, for example, through the use of Excavation. Earthen Ramparts have been created around the fields. Bloom raises orchards.

Some of these things could even be used within the confines of a large walled city, making it an oasis contained in stone.
 

Actually, I've found you can do quite well with encounters on the road. The important thing is to put some thought into them and make them feel like a natural part of the setting. Don't just have a bunch of orcs attack the PCs with no warning; instead, have the PCs enter a orc-haunted region and encounter signs of orc marauders. Have them come across a small fortified town that's had to defend itself from orc attacks. Then, when you bust out the orc encounter, it won't feel random; it's part of the quest, a threat that must be overcome for the party to reach its destination.

This is my point exactly. In the scenario you describe, the orc attack is part of the plot. The party is attacked by orcs and is then drawn into helping a town. Maybe it's not the main overarching plot of the whole campaign, but it's at least a side quest. The fight with the orcs MATTERS.

The other approach to PoL, where the untamed wilderness between the points of light is full of attacks by monsters that do nothing other than slow the PCs down, is not a good idea in a 4e game, in my opinion. Fights take a while. If they're throwaways, then they're not worth having. The battle you described has transcended throwaway status, which makes it worthwhile.

I'm not saying you can't have encounters on the road. I'm saying that if you choose to have them, you should make them matter to the plot of the campaign, at least as a meaningful side quest. I also think it's unlikely that this sort of on-the-road attack is something you'll want to run EVERY TIME your players leave a settlement to go somewhere interesting; the game would become nothing but little side-quests.
 

Yeah, I think of it this way, I only have about 6 full encounters to spend on a level. Making travel between 2 towns really dangerous enough to be a threat would require burning at least half a level worth of action, which is basically going to be a full night's play, if not 2.

Once in a while have a side quest or maybe a specific trip that turns into a 'gauntlet'. For instance a nice band of 50 orcs gets after the group. First they encounter some signs, then they run into a small orc patrol, then they realize there's a whole CLAN of orcs out there who are now after them. A clan too big for them to defeat in whole. All of a sudden there's no taking a night's rest. The trip turns into hustling to escape an unwinnable battle which can now be framed as a nice SC with a fight or two in it. Tie it back into the main plot however you want, the orcs show up again later, they were hired by someone, they're fighting with someone, etc.

One trip like that will adequately convey the idea. Once the PCs gain a couple levels and make another long trip you can have a trivial orc ambush and just describe it as the party driving off a few of the now outclassed orcs that used to bother them.
 

Interesting discussion.

I have definitely noticed a dichotomy between the PoL theme and the ruleset. A couple ideas for bringing them together:

Skill Challenges to create a narrative for dangerous travel between PoL, with the occasional actually threatening combat encounter (but make it a real threat... maybe even way too hard every now and then. "Run awayyyy!!")

I have gotten rid of XP in my games... I like to control the pacing of appropriate threats for my PCs... it generally takes my PC's longer to level, giving me more time to develop the story. I personally prefer one adventure/module per level (I am sure this comes from my BECM days...). This way the PC's can devote their energies to surviving and resolving the conflict rather than racing to power-up.

YMMV
 

Leveling too slowly runs the risk of players not feeling a sense of accomplishment though.

I've found that travel Skill Challenges have far too contrived a feeling to them. With diplomatic and scavenger hunt Skill Challenges, you can hide the mechanic in the interaction. That's far more difficult with travel.

How about this instead: Provide real challenges in travel but rather than giving experience, how about story rewards? Contacts. Allies. A base of operations. Information. Adventure hooks.
 

The problem I ran into was that the modules I was using (starting with KotS and Thunderspire and then a bunch of others) were relatively self-contained. Thus there wasn't many times where I saw a chance of foreshadowing on the way to whatever location was the hub of the next module. Part of this was just my own fault of probably not trying hard enough... but I think part of it was (as we mentioned) my reticence to slow the story down to accomplish it.

Had I been running a sandbox / exploration styled game... the PoL would have been much easier and more obvious to accomplish. In that regard, the journey is part of the adventure. In my game, the journey was the waste of time I had to get through in order to get to the adventure. It ended up being fine... I don't think my players cared or noticed one way or another that they seemed to go back and forth from Fallcrest to Winterhaven to Thunderspire to Harken to Hammerfast with a minimum of difficulty. But it's only now as I look back and begin trying to incorporate King of the Trollhaunt Warrens into the game (which has quite a number of encounter sites the party can come upon on the way to the Great Warren) that I've realized that the journey to adventure was fast-forwarded to get to the adventure itself. And I might've missed out on some better plotting and had made the Nentir Vale a little more scary/exciting had I spent a bit more time on it.
 

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