Getting rid of treasure distribution

Obergnom

First Post
I love DMing 4e, but there is two things getting in my way because they tend to suck up time I would rather spend otherwise.

XP, because they tend to force a certain speed of advancement. No problem not using them, though.

And treasure.

Getting 4 useful items to my players each level feels like work to me. I like to give them the occasional powerful item, but handling out so many of them is no fun to me. Any sugestions?

We tried "Wish Lists" I could pick from... but actually, thats still a lot of work, as you have to read through all those lists, find out which PC need what etc. Random treasure on the other hand seems to underpower the characters. (I tried Asmors online generator)
 

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Sorry if this is 'stating the obvious' but if you are already controlling the xp why don't you just do the same with the loot?

Depending on your style of game there really isn't that much your players will have to spend money on. So you can just dish out chunks of cash at appropriate times.

Magical Items wise as long as the PCs have appropriate level armour and weapons everything will be balanced enough. So as long as their attack and defences are about right for their level you can just throw in magical items when you want to, you can also have them find residum as loot so that they can make their own stuff.

If the players think they are behind the curve I am sure that they will let you know. You should also be able to gauge it from how combats go.

In my own campaign I have ignored treasure parcels for 9 levels without too many issues. Every once in a while I get the players to tell me what items they have, if I spot any imbalances I slot something in at the next appropriate spot. Also in major hoards I sometimes let the players propose what they each find (say any item up to level 10) and make an instant decision if it is balanced. The DMG says that you should tailor items to your party, as the main aim is for everyone to have fun that may as well be taken to its logical conclusion of intelligent selection.

This frees me up to design the important treasure, ie artifacts and plot information.
 

I had my players make wish lists for treasure too, and that was tedious for them and I. So last session when I felt they should find a magic item, I looked at one character and said, " Look up an item of no more than fourth level. That is what you find."

Cheesy, but easy!
 

One way of reading the OP's question is he don't want to bother with the multitude of items you "must" have.

In that case, the discussion switches to two issues:
1) what bonuses are absolutely essential for the math to work?
2) assuming you hand out these bonuses regardless of items (just like you get lots of automatic power-ups when you level), how to make the relatively rare occurrence of a "real" magic item noteworthy and worth your time and attention?

In the first case, can't you simply say...
a) +1 to attacks (replacing enchantment bonuses on weapons or implements) each half tier (at 6th, 11th, 16th, 21st, and 26th level. Top of with a sixth increment when you're about to start the final quest for immortality or whatever)
b) same to Fort/Ref/Will (replacing neck items) at similar intervals
c) same to AC (replacing magic armor), but with a twist:
c1) for heavy armor, add the bonus twice (replacing the masterwork component of magic armor). Yes, this progression is really much the same, ending with +6 at 30th level.
c2) for light armor, hand out two increments only (+1 at about 21st level and +2 at 30th). Again, these increments are on top of the regular 1-6 bonus to AC you get over the levels.

Have I forgotten something absolutely essential? (Obviously the complete lack of items with properties or Dailies will hurt, but I don't think such bonuses plays in the same league as the above. Besides, we'll discuss magic items below. Here I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of the game.)

Then for the second issue, you can go wild handing out few items, but each with powerful properties (yes, you can mix in more than one property per item)! You can experiment with handing out items whose Dailies become Encounter powers. Etc...

Because the "basic" enchantment bonuses have been taken care of already, I recommend that any "plus" of such items be limited to +1 or +2. (Nicely corresponding to how you find items "above your level" in the base game)

I think it's important to make it clear that such a +2 item would be equally desirable at 5th and 25th level. The "increasing numbers" game has been taken care of already, so your players should not expect +1 weapons at low level and +6 weapons at high level. Instead, the same weapon's basic plus can remain throughout the entire game.

As for properties such as "resist 5 fire", you should obviously consider increasing this (to resist 10/15/20 etc) if you like the idea of heroes keeping the same weapons throughout the campaign. This also cuts down on the number of magic items you need to hand out.

Good luck!

I don't have to add that you should only do this with players who are okay with the focus moved away from treasure and finding new kewl stuff, do I? :)
 
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For my next campaign, I'm going to tell my players that every time they gain a level, they get one magic item of up to their new level +1, and gold equal to one fifth the value of a magic item of their old level. 1st-level characters start out with 100 gp as normal.

So, a 1st-level character who makes it to 2nd level gets one magic item of up to 3rd level, and 72 gp (one-fifth the value of a 1st-level magic item).

This is pretty close to what the average character in a 5-man party that finds all 10 treasure parcels every level will get.
 

For my next campaign, I'm going to tell my players that every time they gain a level, they get one magic item of up to their new level +1, and gold equal to one fifth the value of a magic item of their old level. 1st-level characters start out with 100 gp as normal.

That's pretty close to what I am doing in my current game, except that I am capping the PCs at 5 items (more or less). Once they hit 7th level, whenever they get a new item, the lose their weakest item.

The actual rules are a bit more complex, eliminating gold from the reward system entirely. If you are interested, here are my full house rules:

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Equipment and Magic Items

Tracking money and treasure is a bookkeeping pain and detracts from the heroic elements of D&D. These rules replace treasure with magic items slots that increase as characters gain levels.

  • Level 2: 1 magic item, level 3
  • Level 3: 2 magic items, levels 3 and 4.
  • Level 4: 3 magic items, levels 3, 4 and 5.
  • Level 5: 4 magic items, levels 3, 4, 5 and 6.
  • Level 6: 5 magic items, levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
  • Level 7: 5 magic items, levels 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.
  • Level 8: 5 magic items, levels 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9.
  • And so forth (+1 level to each slot as you advance).
As you adventure, the DM should award periodically reward you with a new magic item. In the simplest case, this can be when you advance to a new level. Alternately, the DM can give you the new item as a reward between levels, at some appropriate point in your adventures. Roughly midway through a level is a good place to award new magic items.

The new item's level should be up to 1 level better than the level you are about to gain. For example, sometime between levels 3 and 4, the DM should award a character with a new item of up to level 5. The DM should award items appropriate to the character, or simply let the player choose the new item.

Limits and upgrades: Above 6th level, you are limited to five items slots. When you gain a new magic item, you must also give up one item, usually your weakest. The simplest way is to replace your weakest magic item with a similar item that has an extra +1 bonus, effectively upgrading it to the level of the new item slot. At character level 7, you might upgrade your +1 Sylvan armor (level 3) to +2 Sylvan armor (level 8). Five levels later you might upgrade again to +3 Shadowflow armor (level 13).

Split item slots: If you want to have more than your normal allotment of magic items, you can split one of your item slots into a pair of items, both 3 levels lower. For example, at third level, you can take a pair of 1st level items instead of your allotted 4th level item. You can only split each slot once, so the maximum number of items you can ever have is ten items.

Item swapping: When you gain a new item, you also can retrain a second item, swapping it for another item of equivalent level. For example, suppose you currently have +2 chain armor (level 6) and a +2 frost sword (level 8). At 10th level you gain a new 11th level item, but decide you would rather upgrade your +2 chain armor to a +3 sword because you want to have a better attack bonus. You can then retrain your +2 frost sword to become +2 delver's chain armor (also level 8), so that you still have some magic armor.

If your retrain a split item slot, swap out both items, either for a single item or another pair of lower level items. Also, you can retrain a single item into a split item. Finally, you can use your Retraining option from PH 28 to retrain an extra magic item instead of retraining a skill, power or feat.

Mounts: For the purpose of these rules, mounts count as a magic item of their level. The character can upgrade mounts to more powerful creatures as they gain levels, or add levels to the existing mount. Ignore the level requirements for mount special abilities.

Consumable Items: After first level, a character can also have a single consumable item (potion, ritual scroll, etc.) up to his level + 3. Alternately, he can have two consumable items of his current level, three consumable items of level – 3, four of level – 6 and so forth. These consumables can be replenished and changed freely between adventures. The DM may allow characters to acquire consumables in the middle of an adventure, so that they might get a ritual scroll of Water Breathing when they know they are going on an underwater adventure.

Rituals: Other than magic items, the other major cost expenditure in the 4th Edition D&D rules are for magic rituals. These rules allow ritual casting based on their level instead of giving them a component cost. Rituals are grouped into three categories, based on the ritual’s level and the caster’s level:

Hard: Rituals between the caster’s level and the caster’s level – 4.

Moderate: Rituals between the caster’s level – 5 and the caster’s level – 9.

Easy:
Rituals less than or equal the caster’s level – 10.

For an 13th level caster, rituals level 9-13 are hard, 4-8 are moderate and 1-3 are easy.

A ritual caster starts with 2 rituals and gains 1 ritual per level. Wizards start with 3 rituals, gains 1 ritual per level plus a bonus ritual at the levels specified in his class description (5, 11, 15, 21, 25). The caster can only learn a ritual if he is trained in the key skill and if the ritual is not higher than his current level. You can retrain a ritual to another, equal-level ritual by using your retraining option when you advance a level. To reduce bookkeeping past a certain point, a caster knows a maximum of 11 hard and moderate rituals (a maximum of 14 for wizards) and automatically knows all easy rituals (those less than or equal to his level – 10) for the key skills in which he is trained.

A ritual caster can only cast 1 hard ritual per day. This limit is increased to 2 hard rituals at the paragon tier and 3 at the epic tier. A ritual caster can cast 1 moderate ritual per hour. A caster may exceed these limits by spending a healing surge, to cast a hard or moderate ritual sooner than he would normally be allowed. This is in addition to any healing surge cost for the ritual itself. A ritual caster can cast easy rituals as often as he likes, limited only by their casting time.

The caster does not need to spend any gold for the ritual’s component cost, but a caster needs special equipment to cast a ritual. If a caster is separated from his equipment, he cannot cast rituals. Any other ritual casting costs (such as healing surges) are still required.

The very expensive Raise Dead ritual is no longer allowed.

Mundane Equipment: Player characters can have whatever mundane equipment they want, within reason, even at first level. In practice, only bother to keep track of weapons and armor. You can assume that the player characters have whatever other reasonable adventuring gear they might need. You can also assume the PCs never run out of ammunition unless it is dramatically important.

Rationale: The goal of these rules is to eliminate the need to track treasure and to balance items between characters. These rules are roughly equivalent to the treasure parcels and the “Starting at Higher Level” rules in the DMG, p. 143. They assume that (a) treasure value is split evenly among the party, (b) it is devoted mainly to magic items and (c) the character’s sell off older and weaker items to cover their living expenses. Alternately, the characters are spending gold to upgrade their existing items’ magic. The rules simply abstract the entire treasure acquisition and magic item creation process.

An alternate rationale for these rules is that heroes naturally generate mystic energy that improves the items they possess. As they grow in power, they unlock new abilities in their items. These items are attuned to the hero and cannot be used by anyone else, because their source of power is the hero. This alternate rationale lets you have high-level, low-cash heroes that still have access to the magic items they need to be competitive. This means the greatest heroes in the world don’t necessarily have to be among the wealthiest individuals as well.
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A bit complex alright. :uhoh: I can understand creating such rules because you want to experience something different, but I can't say keeping track of ten "item slots" (not the same usage as the standard terminology) is less of a bookkeeping pain or that keeping track of gold is especially unheroic (or unparagon)... perhaps you started out easy and got carried away? :)
 


A bit complex alright. :uhoh: I can understand creating such rules because you want to experience something different, but I can't say keeping track of ten "item slots" (not the same usage as the standard terminology) is less of a bookkeeping pain or that keeping track of gold is especially unheroic (or unparagon)... perhaps you started out easy and got carried away? :)

The bookkeeping reduction is mostly on me as a DM. I never have to stat out treasures for adventures, which saves a fair amount of time. I don't have to worry whether the players are properly accounting for all their minor expenses, because their equipment is based entirely on their level. I don't have to worry about how much the PCs are spending on room and board, and things like bribes can be handled through skill challenges.

My players are OK with the system, even though it represents more work for them, because they always get exactly the gear that they want. It makes a big difference that not every player shows up for every adventure, so the system helps keep the PCs rigorously balanced with each other.

As for the "anti-heroic" bits, that's mostly a reaction to older editions, where the PCs would take everything that wasn't nailed down every time they went through a dungeon (and generally carried crowbars as well).
 

wow, some nice ideas. Thanks!

I thought about this some more, what I am most concerned of is the PCs becoming to weak, eg the math not working out. As some of you pointed out, thats just three items per player to take care of.

We, as a group, really like the concept of signature items. Our Warlord uses Sturm, a thundering longsword and he wants to keep it till the end of his career. Our Wizard has Rith-Tura (THE staff of winter) and so on.

I could just go for the basics with items, let the players buy the rest. All loot could be magic +x weapons, armor and resistance cloaks (or other neck slot stuff)

I think in the Adventures Vault is a system allowing a player to upgrade an item by using another items enhancment bonus. Thus, once the players find a +3 Weapon, they could upgrade Sturm to +3. (I do not have my AV at hand, so I am not sure how much you have to pay)

I guess I will try this, as it is fairly simple. All I have to keep track of, is giving out enough plain +x items per half tier.
 

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