TSR Giantlands

[Mannahnin]

@Gradine for what it’s worth I’m glad your here.

Seconded. Thank you Gradine.

 

[lingual]

The world would be such a better place if when someone who was attacked by bigots tells us that we are doing something wrong we listenned first instead of instantly explaining why they are wrong, or crying "not me!" all the time....

Right on. The tolerance levels for intolerance differ widely by our own personal experiences. It is a very personal thing and none of us have ever walked in every person's shoes.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Right on. The tolerance levels for intolerance differ widely by our own personal experiences. It is a very personal thing and none of us have ever walked in every person's shoes.

There's a weird thing though- on the internet, no one knows you're a dog.

 

[Sir Brennen]

This thread was all set to welcome Ward back with open arms and not so much as a slap in the wrist and I'll be damned if I let that happen, because that would just demonstrate how little this community actually cares about people like me.

I can't speak for the OP, but I viewed this thread as just watching another car about to go off the tracks in the TSR train wreck.

There's a lot of facets to said catastrophe. In addition to the open bigotry and other complete social media screwups, shady business practices, likely copyright violations and incompetent web presence, there's also this game, which was their only substantial product, and now is back with the original company that started the way overdue Kickstarter.

Given much of the laughable, obviously overblown hype surrounding the game, some of us are curious about it, with high expectations that it will be fairly underwhelming. Maybe it will surprise us, but that definitely doesn't mean we're necessarily going to buy or support it, because we know all the other stuff too.

 

[Eubani]

I can't speak for the OP, but I viewed this thread as just watching another car about to go off the tracks in the TSR train wreck.

There's a lot of facets to said catastrophe. In addition to the open bigotry and other complete social media screwups, shady business practices, likely copyright violations and incompetent web presence, there's also this game, which was their only substantial product, and now is back with the original company that started the way overdue Kickstarter.

Given much of the laughable, obviously overblown hype surrounding the game, some of us are curious about it, with high expectations that it will be fairly underwhelming. Maybe it will surprise us, but that definitely doesn't mean we're necessarily going to buy or support it, because we know all the other stuff too.

Largely you are right as to why I started this thread but there were 2 other reasons 1. Convenience in that future info on the game can be more easily found and 2. So the game and discussion around it did not drown out more serious discussion.

What I did not start this thread for was so people could defend Jim Ward quacking on a podcast with others that were also quacking and wondering if they are all ducks or not. If you quack you are a duck. If you go on to a podcast with ducks and quack you are a duck.

 

[Gradine]

I just don't understand how anyone could justify enabling these guys by pursuing this or any other products that may actually see release out of this whole debacle.

Dinehart went full batcrap bigot, Jim Ward turned into a milkshake duck, and Ernie can't seem to stop digging deeper into the hole he's dug for himself.

Giantlands and 3SR/Wonderfil(l)ed parted ways and I can't figure out how who, if anyone, looks better for it.

 

[CleverNickName]

I agree with @Gradine. Without an apology and a hard course-correction I won't pick up anything these guys produce, under any banner.

 

[Eubani]

Even with an apology and a course correction it does not change that all the claims that have been made about the game have been either dishonest or so far exaggerated that they may as well be a lie. So far I see low quality work and a lot of renamed stolen ideas. Why would I spend a single dollar on that?

 

[Eubani]

Why are we using so many duck metaphors? Poor ducks, why do we malign them so much?

 

[CleverNickName]

Even with an apology and a course correction it does not change that all the claims that have been made about the game have been either dishonest or so far exaggerated that they may as well be a lie. So far I see low quality work and a lot of renamed stolen ideas. Why would I spend a single dollar on that?

That's a good point. I should have said "I won't even consider anything they produce." An apology and course correction aren't guarantees that their products are going to be worth buying.

Also, ducks don't deserve this treatment.

 

[Dire Bare]

EDIT: Nevermind, just saw the mod note.

 

[OakenHart]

I just don't understand how anyone could justify enabling these guys by pursuing this or any other products that may actually see release out of this whole debacle.

Dinehart went full batcrap bigot, Jim Ward turned into a milkshake duck, and Ernie can't seem to stop digging deeper into the hole he's dug for himself.

Giantlands and 3SR/Wonderfil(l)ed parted ways and I can't figure out how who, if anyone, looks better for it.

The only people I imagine who would've bought any of their products at this point would've been other people with bigoted beliefs who want to support that gross behavior. Certainly can't pretend that it's due to any sort of enticing products, they have none other than cheap dice sold for too much, and the little we have heard on Giantlands doesn't sound like it brings anything unique or intetersting to the table. But with the sheer nonsense of the past week, I would have to believe that even those sorts would realize the incompetence at play here from these guys and that they don't actually know what the hell they're doing.

It's impossible to support Giantlands without supporting Dinehart, and there's zero room for misinterpretation with him very directly calling a trans woman "disgusting". Even if he wasn't still attached and it was just Jim Ward, still wouldn't really be able to support it. Giantlands would still be attached to the statements Dinehart has made officially in the name of that product, and as far as I know, Ward hasn't actually stated anything about it not reflecting the product or himself, only that he himself was only "involved in a freelance capacity" (wording might be off).

 

[DammitVictor]

Just deleted the long-winded and mostly hyperbolic version of this post.

edit: Should have deleted this version, too.

 

[Eubani]

Just deleted the long-winded and mostly hyperbolic version of this post.

Creating an environment were we need to know and consider the political values of an artist before consuming art is what these people want and why bad faith political activists are deliberately stirring up these controversies. Turning entertainment media into a cultural minefield of shibboleths and litmus tests is what they want, and in the long run it will only benefit them.

I buy games on the perceived quality of the games themselves. A game with a bunch of unexamined racist/sexist values is probably going to have other serious problems. A game that's marketed on the basis of its deliberate racist/sexist values is practically guaranteed to be an unsalvageable pile of crap. On the other hand, a lot of my favorite games were created by people who've gleefully, publicly advocated my murder at the hands of the police.

If your conscience won't allow you to consider these games... don't let me try to convince you otherwise. But before you come out and declare that anyone who consumes and enjoys entertainment created by tyrants and bigots is on their side, first ask yourself how much of your current library is a ticking time bomb, and second, ask yourself if using the weapons of the enemy is really the look you want to go with.

I have limited spending money (don't we all) so all other things being equal I would rather my money going to the better person/company.

 

[Bolares]

Why are we using so many duck metaphors? Poor ducks, why do we malign them so much?

you've clearly never pissed of a duck (or even worse a goose)

 

[ccs]

I agree with @Gradine. Without an apology and a hard course-correction I won't pick up anything these guys produce, under any banner.

Oh please, what apology could these guys ever give that any of you would actually accept?

If they use thier own words - as Ernie has clumsily done twice now - you'll knit pick it & claim it's false.
He didn't specifically mention x. He didn't say y. He didn't phrase it like this. Or like that. "I would've phrased it like ______". He didn't follow this formula.... etc.
Because you can't accept that this is about as good as your going to get from this clod.

If the formula is followed?
Then you'll just write it off as reading a script.

And no matter what form an opology takes you wont believe they mean it.

So why is having an apology so important to any of you?

 

[Steampunkette]

Oh please, what apology could these guys ever give that any of you would actually accept?

If they use thier own words - as Ernie has clumsily done twice now - you'll knit pick it & claim it's false.
He didn't specifically mention x. He didn't say y. He didn't phrase it like this. Or like that. "I would've phrased it like ______". He didn't follow this formula.... etc.
Because you can't accept that this is about as good as your going to get from this clod.

If the formula is followed?
Then you'll just write it off as reading a script.

And no matter what form an opology takes you wont believe they mean it.

So why is having an apology so important to any of you?

Malcolm X said it best:
"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, that's not progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made. They haven't pulled the knife out; they won't even admit that it's there."

Half hearted "Sorry you got hurt" with no acknowledgement of your own hand pushing the knife into the wound is just pulling it out, like, 2 inches. Same thing with the deflection of responsibility into "I was hacked!" or "It was someone else's opinion I was just sharing" or whatever else.

An actual apology, one that acknowledges wrongdoing, expresses regret, and offers desire to change, is a step toward getting that knife out and a bandage on the wound. It won't be healed overnight, obviously, a 9 inch deep knife wound in the back has probably punctured -something-, but it's a start.

As for @Shroompunk Warlord... Yeah. I'm totally comfortable creating that "Minefield of Shibboleths" as you call it if it means ending bigotry. See, that's the thing people keep glossing over. The "Enemy" is trying to destroy me as a person. They want me dead. Not quiet, not compliant, not away from themselves. D.E.A.D. Dead.

I want them uncomfortable. I want everyone to know who they are and see them for the bigots that they are because only through public shaming are we going to stop them in a nonviolent manner. Enlisting white cis hetero men and women (As well as everyone else) and creating a general understanding that Bigotry is "Not Okay" is the only way to stop the people who want me, and anyone like me, dead... without risking lives.

For all the annoyance it causes people, it's better than violence and death. And considering the number of trans women who have been tortured to death, dismembered, burned, and dumped into dumpsters over the years... I think a little annoyance for all of us is a freaking DEAL compared to the alternative.

And that's not a hyperbolic statement. Trans women -have- been tortured to death, dismembered, burned, and dumped into dumpsters.

 

[Yora]

I'm basically in agreement. This ideological conflict is not one in where there's a middle ground for peaceful compromise. There's a good side and an evil side. One side wants people to be left alone as equals, the other side wants to subjugate and harm people. The only acceptable outcome is the complete banishment of evil ideologies.

That there are malicious haters waving the banner of justice doesn't change that fact. They also need to see their errors and change to be better.

 

[DammitVictor]

EDIT: This post was absolutely 100% a bad idea. I'm out.

 

[Eubani]

It would seem to me giving money to people spewing such toxic philosophies is nothing short of enabling them in 2 ways 1. It makes the believe others agree with their philosophy and 2. Assists them in affording their platform to communicate said toxic philosophy. So giving money to such people is not just a harmless transaction for entertainment some would sell it as.