Giants in the Earth discussion: Jack Sparrow and Pirates of the Carribean

[Felix]

Had he carried out the plan, I'd probably say yes. But seeing as how he's constantly having changes of heart and reversing the decisions he's made to leave people high and dry to his benefit, he continuously keeps getting pulled back to doing the right thing. With that conflicted a soul, I'd still have to call him neutral. To me, a good or evil alignment shows a commitment to that ideal, a consistent choice; someone who vacillates, doing wickedness and then undoing that wickedness, I'd call neutral. Were Jack truly evil, he'd never have had a second thought in most circumstances.

Also, we don't know what Jack is thinking: we only know what he says.

And what Jack says and what Jack does are rarely, if ever, the same thing.

 

[Andor]

If Elizabeth's analysis of Jack is to be believed, he went back to the Pearl to find out what it'd feel like. And he jumped into the Kraken's maw out of pure swashbucklery.

That does not make him any less Evil.

I didn't say it did, just that it was a good act. One good act does not undo a lifetime of evil, unless of course you are Anakin Skywalker...

That having been said Jack of the first movie is not particularly evil. He is entirely self motivated to be sure, but he's not cruel, he doesn't kill the helpless, he doesn't even betray a trust (if you squint a bit). I would pin Jack of the first movie a N possibly even with good tendancies. Will thinks he's good, and Will is so LG he's practically a paladin.

In the second movie it's a bit of a different story. He betrays anyone and everyone out of pure self interest. Amd selling Will soul to Davy Jones is certainly evil, although it's worth noting that was the contingency plan and not the ideal outcome. So he's certainly willing to commit evil acts. He does however have one mitigating circumstance, he's terrified out of his wits. We know from the first movie he is driven by a patholgical love of freedom, and now he faces eternal slavery. So there is the open question of how much leeway one gets on the alignment chart for roleplaying fear.

 

[Hussar]

Had he carried out the plan, I'd probably say yes. But seeing as how he's constantly having changes of heart and reversing the decisions he's made to leave people high and dry to his benefit, he continuously keeps getting pulled back to doing the right thing. With that conflicted a soul, I'd still have to call him neutral. To me, a good or evil alignment shows a commitment to that ideal, a consistent choice; someone who vacillates, doing wickedness and then undoing that wickedness, I'd call neutral. Were Jack truly evil, he'd never have had a second thought in most circumstances.

But, Jack rarely has second thoughts. He gets pulled back, but not by himself, but by the situation. And it makes sense because the writer wants Jack to remain a sympathetic character. Had he succeeded and sold the souls, we'd probably all hate Jack. And that would make for a pretty bad movie. So, Deus Ex Machina strikes time and again to foil Jack's plans.

It's not like Jack's particularly vacillating. He jumps in with both feet to sign up people for Davy Jones. He's not stepping back and saying, "Whoa, I really wish I didn't have to do this."

I do agree that Jack in the first movie would probably be a poster boy for CN. Nothing he does is particularly evil, just self absorbed. However, betraying his only friend, selling the souls of people and selling his own soul in the first place are all very evil acts. Never mind trying to get into Elizabeth's pants as well. Stealing your best friend's girlfriend isn't exactly a good act.

Other than going back to fight the Kraken, which was an act decidedly out of character of what we know of Jack, what good act has he performed?

 

[Henry]

Other than going back to fight the Kraken, which was an act decidedly out of character of what we know of Jack, what good act has he performed?

In Black Pearl, when hiding in the Blacksmith's shop, he refuses to hurt Will at first, hoping to just scare him off. He has Will at his mercy in two places (during the sword fight and then at gunpoint) and tries to get him to back down rather than kill him, which would have been easy to do at those times. "This shot was not meant for you..."

Also, he goes back to help Will and Elizabeth fight Barbossa, rather than sell them out. He could have as easily slit their throats at a convenient time, but never did.

In fact, one might say his weakness isn't doing good, but Elizabeth, or Elizabeth and Will. Jack may perform evil actions, but so far he has always just barely stepped back from the brink of evil before closing the door. Jack's always about leaving his options open, even if it's the fate of his soul.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'd say it's even more complicated than that.

Jack never gives up the quest for Jones's heart, so who's to say he has any intention of honoring any bargain with Jones? The entire bit with the lost-soul sad-sack crewmen could just be a stalling tactic while he figures out how to get the heart (as he does the minute he finds Elizabeth). If Jack were truly evil, there's not much stopping him from just ferrying a bunch of no-hopers to Jones and having done at that.

I'd say Jack is practically the embodiment of CN, as it's impossible to really say whether what he's doing is *genuinely* evil, *genuinely* heroic, simply crazy, or a massive fake-out on all counts.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yes, Jack is evil. He's nonetheless the good guy of the story, because it's clearly biased toward pirates of course, but he's evil as far as alignments are concerned.

He's a protagonist, not a good guy, although the two are normally the same thing.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And on all these PotC characters, they have ranks of the Swim skill, which is historically inaccurate, but then, it's all a big fantasy anyway.

 

[Henry]

Well, we know Jack has Swim, at least.

I'm trying to remember if Pintle and Ragetti could swim, and I know Will can (he escaped the Dutchman), but we don't know about the others - best to assume they can swim at least decently.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

I love this thread. It asks for stats on Jack and co. and it desolves into a debate on alignment.

 

[Gez]

In D&D, alignment is a stat. Not a numbered one, yeah, but it's still one anyway.