Girallon's Blessing *again*

[Oryan77]

This spell (out of the Spell Compendium) is becoming quite a hassle. First of all, the combo our player's 7th lvl cleric is using is to cast Girallon's Blessing followed up with the swift action spell Blood Wind.

This allows him to grow 2 new arms & get 4 ranged natural claw attacks including a rend attack if he hits with 2 claws.

The spell description has a line in there that says "The creature's original arms are its primary arms, and the new limbs are secondary limbs".

After reading that the first time, I took it as saying the new limbs are secondary "attacks" which would take the -5 penalty for not having multiattack. The player said it might be calling them secondary limbs for dual wielding purposes...but why would they say secondary limbs rather than off-hand attacks?

I know monsters extra arms are not secondary attacks, but I thought this spell might be considering these arms differently. There's a few other references in the description that makes it look like none of the arms are subjected to multiattack penalties, but I can't figure out why there is mention of "secondary limbs" if having secondary limbs doesn't impact anything (like penalties).

So my questions is, are there rules regarding secondary limbs that I need to know about? Why would this spell description spend half a paragraph talking about secondary limbs if it's not referring to them as being secondary attacks?

 

[TheGogmagog]

Secondary natural weapons does have a game effect. They attack at -5.
Without Multiattack, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a -5 penalty. And, Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. This is different than off hand attacks.

So cast on a 7th level fighter instead of attacking at BAB +7/+2, with the benefit of a 4th(?) level spell you get +7/+7/+2/+2. Remember + str on primary and 1/2 str on secondary damage. Cast on a +4 bab creature they go from one attack to four +4/+4/-1/-1.

*** Edit: give me a moment to rephrase... ****

I may be confusing myself, but I believe for natual attacks there arn't primary and off hand. those terms only apply to weapons and off hand attacks. For natual weapons the attack is either primary or secondary.

 

[IcyCool]

Secondary natural attacks suffer a -5 penalty to hit (without multiattack), and only get the benefit of 1/2 Strength modifier on the attack. So in the case of Girallon's blessing, his two normal arms are primary natural attacks, and his two new arms are secondary natural attacks.

 

[Nail]

For natual weapons the attack is either primary or secondary.

Yup.

 

[Oryan77]

Secondary natural attacks suffer a -5 penalty to hit (without multiattack), and only get the benefit of 1/2 Strength modifier on the attack. So in the case of Girallon's blessing, his two normal arms are primary natural attacks, and his two new arms are secondary natural attacks.

Yeah, I understand that. That is exactly what I was assuming at first.

But what I'm asking is the fact that the description refers to the new arms as secondary "limbs" rather than secondary "attacks". My player brought up the fact that the spell description never says anything about taking into account that you get multiattack penalties. It actually says:

"the creature gains four claw attacks, each using it's base attack bonus + it's Str modifier for attack rolls"

and

"Each claw deals 1d4 points of damage + the subject's Str modifier".

So if they meant for them to be secondary "attacks", he thinks they would have mentioned the penalties in the description & the half Str bonus damage for the secondary attacks. Also, creatures with multiple arms don't take multiattack penalties, their arms all have the same BAB and their bite/tail attacks take the secondary attack penalty.

So I'm wondering, does this spells description of "secondary limbs" mean that it's a "secondary attack" or is it just a text error from it's conversion from Savage Species to the Spell Compendium? The spell was changed a lot between books & it looks like the text was copied and pasted without any real thought.

I'm not arguing about it at all. I'm just bringing up points so I can get feedback before I nerf this spell according to my player. If he's right, I won't nerf it...if I'm right & they are secondary attacks, he's gotta live with it.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I appologize for replying without reading the spell, that should learn me for a while.

I change my answer to: the 'secondary arms' might refer to what is held in each hand, but I can't think of how that would matter. Or clarify it doesn't duplicate weapons. It might be a copy/paste error.

 

[Sithobi1]

Perhaps they mean any weapon is considered in the offhand(less damage)...

 

[Oryan77]

It might be a copy/paste error.

I'm thinking it might be that also since no one has said that "secondary limbs" has any meaning in regard to the rules.