Give me the complete picture: WP/VP

sinmissing

First Post
I've heard about this system quite often, but I'm not sure I've learned the whole thing.

Your WP = CON. This is also modified by certain feats, but what about Size? Does a large creature with a CON of 10 have more WP than a medium creature with the same CON?

VP increases every level like hit dice. Does feats like toughness increase both WP and VP or just one or the other?

On a critical hit, damage is done directly against WP. Do weapons have a critical hit damage multiplier as well?

Does a character recover VP at the same rate as nonlethal damage? (Character Level/Hour)

Are there any other aspects about the system I'm missing?
 

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sinmissing said:
I've heard about this system quite often, but I'm not sure I've learned the whole thing.

Your WP = CON. This is also modified by certain feats, but what about Size? Does a large creature with a CON of 10 have more WP than a medium creature with the same CON?

Yes, size affects your WP. It's not uncommon for Large (and larger) monsters to have more WP than VP.

sinmissing said:
VP increases every level like hit dice. Does feats like toughness increase both WP and VP or just one or the other??

Toughness increases WP.

sinmissing said:
On a critical hit, damage is done directly against WP. Do weapons have a critical hit damage multiplier as well?

No, unless you want an insanely lethal system. Weapons with a higher crit multiplier usually have an increased threat range.

sinmissing said:
Does a character recover VP at the same rate as nonlethal damage? (Character Level/Hour)

Yes.

sinmissing said:
Are there any other aspects about the system I'm missing?

Probably.
 

Check out my Grim Tales variant ruleset (see sig). I wrote it for use with Grim Tales but it basically has most of the rules for VP/WP (with a few tweaks of my own).
 

sinmissing said:
I've heard about this system quite often, but I'm not sure I've learned the whole thing.

Your WP = CON. This is also modified by certain feats, but what about Size? Does a large creature with a CON of 10 have more WP than a medium creature with the same CON?
Yes. Size increases WP.
VP increases every level like hit dice. Does feats like toughness increase both WP and VP or just one or the other?
I've seen Toughness feats which increase both (cf T20), and others which increase only VP.
On a critical hit, damage is done directly against WP. Do weapons have a critical hit damage multiplier as well?
Again, T20 has both the damage multipler and the WP damage, making for a really deadly game. Perhaps moreso than you are interested in. In general though, no, critical hits do not have a damage multipler.
Are there any other aspects about the system I'm missing?
There are some variations in the system which give more or less WP/VP than the usual CON/HP scale. And some variations on when you start applying damage to WP instead of or in addition to VP. What happends when VP goes to 0 or below, usually the extra appies to WP. How does negative WP work, usually at -10, the character is dead, though I've seen -CON as the death point. If you have magical/psionic healing, how does this effect VP/WP? Usually the number of dice indicated the WP healing, and roll the dice to get VP healing. How does non-lethal damage, poison damage and other kinds of special HP damage work in this system.
 

Well, I'd heard about VP/WP before for years thanks to Star Wars d20, and then other games that used it. It just sounded like more recordkeeping to me, yet I was constantly bitching about how many hit points PCs were racking up in my D&D game and how unkillable they were, LOL. Then I switched to Conan OGL, and whjile it still had HP, it made a number of changes (Defense instead of AC, Armor becomes DR, reduced HP progression, Parry incoming melee attacks) that made combat more lethal and fun (scary). Eventually, last month I finally tried Star Wars d20, with its VP/WP mechanic (plus just about everything Conan had to offer except Parry). VP/WP were the answer I was looking for ever since 3e came out (and before, TBH). Combined with the rest of the rules changes, VP/WP make the game super deadly, super scary and super fun. Because you never know when you are going to die, or who's going to kill you! You ALWAYS need to be worried about getting into combat, because you could be 20th level and still get capped by some 1st level NPC class loser. So TACTICS become very important. You can't just charge 50 orcs (or stormtroopers) and expect to win. What you can expect is to be DEAD. So very, very dead. That's why nobody in their right mind ever does anything that stupid in real life or even in the movies (unless you're talking the end of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, when they KNOW they are about to die and decide to go down fighting). Cover (particularly in modern and sci-fi games) is your new best friend, because it reduces the chance your enemy has of confirming a critical. Critical hits bypass VP and apply straight to WP, and your WP are always woefully low compared to VP (at least after the first few levels; they start out higher because they equal your CON, and VP are only 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 points/level + CON mod).

Now, here is a key element: NPCs without heroic character levels are mooks. They get no VP, no matter what level they are (unless they buy the Quickness feat, which weorks just like Toughness but for VP: +3 VP bonus). Most bad guy NPCs you encounter come in three flavors: 4th level (low level), 8th level (mid-level) and 12th level (high level). This makes them competent enough to maybe do something bad to you, but they die so easy because they have no VP. That is why stormtroopers and such wear armor. It provides DR, which might let them survive one hit (if you roll bad for damage or are using a crappy weapon), but probably not two hits. They are there to slow you down. Cannon fodder. Like the movies. When you mix in villains with heroic character levels,, they have VP and many more abilities and they can tear you up right away if you're not careful. So when you see Darth Vader (20th level badass) walk up behind those three snowtroopers (4th level Thug - NPC class) that you weren't too worried about a second ago, you know it's time to get the hell out of there... Unless you've got a very good plan how to neutralize his butt. Quick. Just like the movies.

VP/WP causes players to pick their battles much more carefully because they can't just expect to win. Even minor fights can mess them up good when some mook rolls a crit and then confirms it. Critical damage multipliers are only ever x2; weapons may have greater critical threat ranges (such as 18-20). That's not to say the players will never get into fights. Just that they will be smarter about it. They have to be. Nobody wants to get into a pointless fight with VP/WP, especially Jedi or Sith. You gotta save your VP vs. damage and also to power your Force feats and skills...

The Force (magic in D&D) is powered by VP. Each Force power (magic spell) is a skill, but usually a tactical skill with various uses that fall under one umbrella. Each use of the skill costs VP, either a one-time flat cost per casting or a variable cost to maintain (depending on what you are trying to affect with it). This really forces Force-Users to think about skill point allocation, because they only get one set of points per level, so to master both mundane and Force skills, you gotta split your points between them. You either specialize or become a jack of all trades/master of none. Other character classes don't have this problem, but then again, they can't use the Force.

Force Points (aka Action Dice, Luck Points, etc. in other systems) are earned one per level and once per act of dramatic heroism. You can spend one once per round to add a a bunch of dice (depending on your level, and if you are calling upon the Dark or Light Side of the Force) to any d20 roll (skill checks, saves, attack rolls, critical threat confirmations). Different GMs may allow other uses. Personally, my villains use them to negate criticals on themselves. :D

Anyway, it's really not just about VP/WP; it's about a whole bunch of changes working together to make d20 more scary and thus more fun for both players and GMs. Once you get the hang of it, there really is not much extra in the way of recordkeeping. Remember that most NPCs don't even have VP to keep track of. ;)
 

Iron_Chef said:
Well, I'd heard about VP/WP before for years thanks to Star Wars d20, and then other games that used it. It just sounded like more recordkeeping to me, yet I was constantly bitching about how many hit points PCs were racking up in my D&D game and how unkillable they were, LOL.

WP/VP is actually 95% the same mechanic as HP are in D&D, only spelled out for easier reference.

When you're a level 10 Fighter with 70 HP, your body isn't really as physically resiliant as a piece of Iron or a tree, you're still human.

Only a smaller fraction of your HP is actual honest to <insert god name> damage. For the most part, it's scrapes and bruises and near misses, etc. Thats all caused because you're moving in combat and not standing still. Even if someone had their knife to your throat, if your HP can take it, it doesn't mean you took a knife into the throat and keep on going. It means you weasled out of the way and/or deflected the blow taking only a tiny cut.

But thats exactly what WP/VP is as well, only it's spelled out for you which is scrape/bruise/luck and what exactly is dagger into your stomache and broken bone damage.

Now the fact that you can bypass the VP is strictly a matter of taste. It's not very heroic to have your level 10 Fighter get a broken neck by falling down a flight of stairs or hit in the face by a mook.

I've actually played in a D&D game where every bit of your HP was a direct wound and it was atrocious. Everyone was like a literal pincushion with arrows sticking out of them and getting bastard swords burried to their hilts in their stomaches and they continue to fight like nothing happened. I found it very humorous, but the GM was trying to make it all seriously epic and got annoyed when I kept laughing and after the game joked about it.
 

Iron_Chef said:
Then I switched to Conan OGL, and whjile it still had HP, it made a number of changes (Defense instead of AC, Armor becomes DR, reduced HP progression, Parry incoming melee attacks) that made combat more lethal and fun (scary). Eventually, last month I finally tried Star Wars d20, with its VP/WP mechanic (plus just about everything Conan had to offer except Parry). VP/WP were the answer I was looking for ever since 3e came out (and before, TBH).

So IC, having played both Conan and a VP/WP-oriented system, would you introduce VP/WP into Conan? If so, how/would you change sneak attacks?

Just curious as I've recently switched to Conan as my fantasy RPG ruleset and have purchased Spycraft 2.0. Haven't had a chance to take VP/WP for a test drive yet and don't want to derail my fantasy game.

Also, would you drop Fate Points in favor of Action Dice ala Spycraft? (Not sure if Star Wars uses these...)

Azgulor
 

Glassjaw: reviewing your document with some interest.

Thanks for all of your replies. Another question: Sneak Attack, how is it handled?

Does the xd6 of a sneak attack apply to VP? - or - Is sneak attack converted to something like +2 damage vs WP? Something else?

RE: Size
Is the modification to WP similar to the To Hit modifier for large creatures?

Medium +0 WP
Large +1 WP
Huge +4 WP
etc.

How does it scale then?
 

Azgulor said:
So IC, having played both Conan and a VP/WP-oriented system, would you introduce VP/WP into Conan? If so, how/would you change sneak attacks?

Just curious as I've recently switched to Conan as my fantasy RPG ruleset and have purchased Spycraft 2.0. Haven't had a chance to take VP/WP for a test drive yet and don't want to derail my fantasy game.

Also, would you drop Fate Points in favor of Action Dice ala Spycraft? (Not sure if Star Wars uses these...)

Azgulor

I wouldn't play any d20 game without VP/WP at this point.

SW does not use sneak attack in the base classes. The scoundrel (rogue/thief equivalent) gets "precise attack" which is a scaling bonus to Dex-based attacks (must be either with ranged or finessed melee weapons). You apply the bonus to your choice of attack or damage rolls each time you use it and must declare which before rolling your attack. The precise attack bonus starts out at +1, but SW Scoundrels don't get it until 3rd level. You'd have to adjust it for Conan. IIRC, only the Bounty Hunter PrC uses sneak attack. The extra damage is +1d6 (scaling with level), but goes to VP first unless a critical hit, IIRC.

SW uses Force Points, which are similar to Fate Points. You get 1 per level, and 1 per act of dramatic heroism (or something else super-cool in GM's opinion). Force-Sensitives (those who are or who can become wizards) start with 2 FP and have no limit. All others start with 1 FP and can't save up more than 5 (excess are lost so spend 'em if you got 'em). You can spend 1 FP per round to call on either the Light Side or Dark Side of the Force, which provides a number of bonus dice to any one d20 roll. If you are a wizard (force-sensitive) you get a bonus die in addition. If you call on the Dark Side, you get more dice, at least until around 8th level. Afterwards, dark characters start to get shafted on the dice and Lightsiders get more. Now, I use FP for a variety of other purposes (keeping players and pet villains alive being one). I think you can just keep Fate Points as written in Conan, or change it to Spycraft's Action Dice, or to Star Wars Force Points. Each is a different form of expressing the same concept.
 
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sinmissing said:
Glassjaw: reviewing your document with some interest.

Only some interest? :p

Thanks for all of your replies. Another question: Sneak Attack, how is it handled?

Does the xd6 of a sneak attack apply to VP? - or - Is sneak attack converted to something like +2 damage vs WP? Something else?

Sneak attack is the single biggest throrn in the side of the VP/WP system (and the problem I struggled with the most in my ruleset).

Mechanics aside, there are 2 ways of handling sneak attack damage:

1. Leave sneak attack damage unchanged but compensate in some other way for how deadly it is.
2. Nerf sneak attack damage but leave the rest of the system the same.

I went with Door #1. Modifying sneak attack damage itself is a significant undertaking and quickly evolves into some really wonky mechanics. I originally tried to change sneak attack damage so that it dealt damage normally to VP but did a reduced amount to WP. Problems occurred in situations like sneak attack damage "spilling" over from VP to WP damage and if you score a crit while dealing SA damage. It was a mess.

Star Wars leaves SA the way it is. It compensates by significantly reducing the classes that get SA damage. IIRC, the only PrC that does is the Bounty Hunter.

I compensated by only allowing SA damage to be dealt on actual surprise rounds. I balanced this out once again by having all damage dealt in a surprise round be WP damage. I wanted someone trained as an assassin to be able to have a chance to take someone down in one-shot if they were able to ambush their target. I tried to model the system after the Thief video games, in which the protaganist is relatively weak in melee combat but if you are able to sneak behind someone, you can take them out with one shot.[/QUOTE]

sinmissing said:
RE: Size
Is the modification to WP similar to the To Hit modifier for large creatures?

Medium +0 WP
Large +1 WP
Huge +4 WP
etc.

How does it scale then?

I forget exactly but I think Large creatures double their normal amount of WP, Huge creatures x4, etc.
 

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