D&D 3E/3.5 Give unto me your "Power Gamer's 3.5 Guide to Rogues"

[Nail]

...did you purposely omit the "scout" archetype? How about the "face" archetype? Not to mention the "jack-of-all-trades" archetype?

Rogues have far more potential roles than any other core class.

 

[Rockwolf66]

Now i am surprized that no one has mentioned Tieflings. they have rogue as their favorite class, have darkvision and a few helpfull abilities. I have one who is heading towards the shadowdancer presige class ( I tried it once before, as I gained more feets it became a matter of stepping trough a shadow to behind a group of opponants and then watching the bodies fall.)

 

[IanB]

A couple thoughts. The preface is: all you people who know the Age of Worms spoilers, STOP GIVING HIM HINTS ABOUT WHAT HE'LL FACE. Seriously rude, if you ask me. Anyway, moving on.

One, if you want to maximize attacks per round by level 20, you need 4 levels of a full BAB class like fighter or ranger to get your BAB up to +16. I personally prefer ranger as it doesn't hurt your skill progression nearly as badly as fighter, and has some other useful tricks, like free two weapon fighting, tracking, favored enemy, etc.

Second, if your game is forgiving as far as obtaining equipment goes, be a human if you want to focus on skills. You can get goggles of darkvision to make up for not having it inherently; the other races can't get magic items to make up for the human feat and skill point advantage.

A human with a 14 intelligence is getting 11 skill points per level, which should be enough to cover just about everything you need.

Are you rolling stats or point buying?

 

[werk]

Now i am surprized that no one has mentioned Tieflings.

^^^post #5

that's one of my recommendations too.

 

[LostSoul]

For instance, if you are sneaking into a guarded compound, you might need to climb silently over a wall, drop onto the other side, cross 20 feet to the main building, open the lock on the back door, and enter silently. If there's one guard who could, theoretically see you, you need to win at least 7 opposed rolls to do that.

Why do you have to make 7 checks? I seem to remember something about having to make new Hide/Move Silently checks when the situation changes or something like that, but I don't know where that rule might be, if it does exist. If it doesn't exist, can't you just make one Hide and one Move Silently check?

 

[buzz]

Are you rolling stats or point buying?

28-point buy.

Deep halfling was the best option given I'd like to play a small race* and don't want to purchase RoD for the whisper gnome. I liked the idea of a tiefling --not small, I know-- but my DM nixed that. No PrC's I"ve seen are really appealing to me, either; they all seem to sacrifice sneak attack potential.

So... any comments on my actual plan? A deep halfling Rog19/Ftr1 with a spiked chain? Ideas for feats beyond 3rd level?


*I have no problem optimizing, but I need at least some flavor in my characters. I have yet to play a small race.

 

[Ferrix]

I second the Whisper Gnome as the primary choice for a rogues rogue, but deep halfling is still a good choice. Escape Artist should get you out of those pesky grapples.

For attributes, I'd focus a good deal on Intelligence. Sure those other stats might be good to add to your skills, but it's often better to have ranks in skills more-so than bonuses. A 14 or 16 in Intelligence is great for a rogue.

I'm surprised no one really mentioned Use Magic Device, it can be great for a rogue. Wands are their friend.

Make one of your special ability choices opportunist if you are planning for epic with the spiked chain, as then you can get sneak attack of opportunity which makes any AoO a sneak attack.

Feat Suggestions:
Darkstalker - for dealing with those pesky extraordinary senses (tremorsense, blindsight, etc.).
Deft Opportunist - For those AoO with the spiked chain
Combat Reflexes - Spiked chain goodness

Slippers of spider climbing or Cloak of Arachnida - a good way to get out of dangerous combat situations (go up the wall) or get positioning, peg things with arrows. Good with the spiked chain for hanging out on the ceiling and striking down at opponents.
Wand of Glitterdust - to blind foes
Wand of Grave Strike & Golem Strike - SA those undead and construct baddies
Wand of Acid Splash - sure it's 1d3 damage, but it's a touch attack with no SR or save, plus good for SA.

 

[Shin Okada]

Sorry if embarrassed. Actually, I don't know what kind of creatures will appear in the campaign. I just guessed that the title is suggesting some involvement with worm-type creatures. And thought Worm or not, an adventurer will meet a lot of large grappling monster in his way on a long serial module. Our play group has lost at least 2 halflings due to such monsters.

Anyway, if you are to make a melee sneak attacker, I strongly recommend to take countermeasures against special attacks. Small rogues are so vulnerable against grapple, disarm & trip. So Close Quarter Fighting feat will help. Using a locked gauntlet or even spiked gauntlet may be good to avoid being disarmed. Use Steadfast Boots (immune to trip) if your DM allows Arms and Equipment Guide items.

Also, something immune to critical hit will be a menace to you. Taking some levels in spellcasters may allow you to use Wraith Strike and Golem Strike spells found in Complete Adventurer. Skullclan Hunter prestige class found in Miniatures Handbook allow you to sneak attack on undead.

Combat Expertise is a very good feat for a rogue with Int 13+. When your enemy is immune to crit or has too high in AC, you can keep your ground in the middle of opponents at least.

If you want a feinting rogue, Invisible Blade prestige class in Complete Warrior is a way to go.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Why do you have to make 7 checks? I seem to remember something about having to make new Hide/Move Silently checks when the situation changes or something like that, but I don't know where that rule might be, if it does exist. If it doesn't exist, can't you just make one Hide and one Move Silently check?

Well, you're trying to sneak into a guarded compound. You might need to climb silently over a wall (move silently #1), drop onto the other side (move silently #2, hide #1), cross 20 feet to the main building (move silently #3, hide #2), open the lock on the back door (hide #3), and enter silently (move silently #4 and hide #3). That's seven opposed checks right there.

There may well be a few other checks: climb (to climb the wall--probably two checks at speed so you can do it in one round), jump and/or tumble (to get down on the inside), search (for traps on the back door and you'll want a really good search score for this so that you can have a good chance of finding an alarm, fire trap, etc without having to spend two minutes there (and giving the guards 20 shots at rolling a natural 20 on their spot check if they have line of sight)), open locks (and again, you don't want to have to take 20 on this so you'll need a good skill--DC 25, 30 and even DC 40 locks are CHEAP compared to guards and traps, etc), and possibly a disable device check (if the door is trapped).

As for the rule you're quoting, I think that's just a tracking rule (roll every hour or when the DC changes). The SRD description of hide follows

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

As far as I can tell, you need to make an opposed hide check every round you move or attempt to remain hidden without having full cover. You certainly have to make a new hide and move silently check every round you move.

 

[frankthedm]

Deep halfling was the best option given I'd like to play a small race* ....

So... any comments on my actual plan? A deep halfling Rog19/Ftr1 with a spiked chain

1. Talk with the DM on his veiws of sneak attack and loss of dex bonus. By the RAW Hide will only help you get to your foes while thier flat footed. Being hidden in of itself does not let you rob you foes of thier dex bonus. Also ask if any spells have been pulled out of the game or gasp, modified.
.
Good choice on a reach weapon since as a small creature you may run into this sooner, rather than later; The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. .

On the weapon choice, make sure to ask your DM before you start playing if he will be applying curcumstance penalties to move silently or hide due to clanking chain links with razorsharp edges.