Giving a PC a flaw at every level..good idea or bad idea?

[Oryan77]

The PCs picked a fight with a Glabrezu who is much higher level than they are...and they are losing. I have decided it will offer them a "deal" in order for them to walk away alive.

An idea that I had for the Sorcerer PC (who is the one on the brink of death) was to offer him great power in exchange for an essence of his being. In game terms, my idea was to give him a character flaw from Unearthed Arcana or Dragon Magazines and he can select a new feat (he's the type of player that wants to use alternate rules like that). What he wouldn't know is that this would be required every time he levels (the demon continues to take his life force in exchange for more power).

I understand that this could severely unbalance his capabilities, which is kind of the point in making a deal with a demon. I would definitely allow this to discontinue if the PC chose to stop it. He'd have to find and kill the demon in the future, or find a way to end the effect.

I would pick the flaw, but he could pick the rewarded feat. That way I can make sure that the demon gets what he wants from him and it won't be some pointless flaw in exchange for a beneficial feat.

I just thought this might give some interesting new flavor to this character and may be entertaining to the player. It could also give him a goal if he realized this deal is not working out the way he hoped. It's a new PC, so I'm trying to give the player an obstacle that he may find adds interesting flavor to his PC. It's also possible that he would just like having beneficial feats in place of all these flaws (he's pretty easy-going and enthusiastic about odd situations like that).

So, good idea, or a big mistake?

 

[GSHamster]

The thing that concerns me is that this deal is not optional. It's basically take the deal or die. So adding the extra sting on the top doesn't seem fair to me.

It really feels like this is the sort of deal that the player should choose of their own free will, and not be coerced into. Then the sting is their fault for bargaining with demons.

I would suggest the classic "each PC owes the demon a favor in exchange for their lives". If they refuse the favor, their soul is forfeit. But don't add an extra sting on top of that.

Then at a later point, the demon could offer the sorceror the new deal. At this point, the sorceror's only motive for accepting the deal is a lust for power. It's perfectly reasonable to add a sting to this kind of deal.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think the corruption system presented in Heroes of Horror would be a slightly better fit. It works similarly; trade various penalties for bonus feats, but the penalties are closer to what you'd expect flavor-wise.

 

[Oryan77]

The thing that concerns me is that this deal is not optional. It's basically take the deal or die. So adding the extra sting on the top doesn't seem fair to me.

Oh no, this isn't a "do this or die" situation. Sorry if that was the impression I gave. I have a list of "deals" that the devil will offer. This was just the most elaborate deal I came up with and wanted some feedback in case this was the deal the PC made.

There are also other events in place that may save the PC from dying (the other PCs are trying to save him and I have an NPC that will attempt a rescue). So he may not even go the route of needing to make a deal to survive.

I think the corruption system presented in Heroes of Horror would be a slightly better fit. It works similarly; trade various penalties for bonus feats, but the penalties are closer to what you'd expect flavor-wise.

Oh thanks! I wasn't aware of those. I will check that out.

 

[the Jester]

This sounds terrible to me (no offense intended).

Flaw systems are generally easy to min-max your way around. So in essence, this so-called "curse" is a power up.

 

[Ahnehnois]

This sounds terrible to me (no offense intended).

Flaw systems are generally easy to min-max your way around. So in essence, this so-called "curse" is a power up.

The OP noted that the power up was an intentional consequence of dealing with the demon and suggested some of the in-world implications.

Also, having the DM pick the flaw clamps down on one half of the min/max equation.

 

[Celebrim]

In general, a bad idea mainly because most 'flaw' systems I've seen for D20 are badly thought out and finding ones that are balanced is hard.

In general, a bad idea because flaws even more than benefits tend to add fiddly complexity that slows down play.

But in this specific context, it's full of awesome anyway.

If anything, the usual flaws available in D20 aren't nearly nasty enough to capture the flavor of this 'deal'. Entry into a prestige class MUHAHHAHAHA might also be warranted. If I was a player, I'd be thinking, "You know, it might be a lot less painful in the long run to just crumple the sheet up now and die a heroes death."

 

[Blackbrrd]

I really like the idea, both as a DM and player. Have the player pick the bonus feat first before you pick the flaw. Pick something that tips the scale slightly against the character.

Part of the point would be for the player to maybe see that the deal is a problem and try to work his way out of it. (Which should be possible). Should get veeery interesting.

My current DM did something like this in the campaign I am playing now, and it's quite fun. Really makes the campaign something to remember.

 

[Umbran]

If the flaws are nasty enough, this might work.

However, context matters. This is for the one PC, but the entire party has the issue, correct? What do the others have to do to save their lives?

 

[Oryan77]

Flaw systems are generally easy to min-max your way around. So in essence, this so-called "curse" is a power up.

Yeah, that's why I said that I would pick the flaw. I don't allow flaws or alternate classes in general because of the reason you just mentioned. But if I'm picking their flaw....then.....

Have the player pick the bonus feat first before you pick the flaw. Pick something that tips the scale slightly against the character.

Excellent suggestion! I think I'll do that if this situation happens. That way I can really make sure that the flaw he receives will balance out the feat he picks if I felt it needed to be balanced.

If the flaws are nasty enough, this might work.

However, context matters. This is for the one PC, but the entire party has the issue, correct? What do the others have to do to save their lives?

Actually just 2 PCs, but the sorcerer could strike the deal for himself to save the other PC from the trouble if they wanted.

I won't go into detail, but it's a situation where they were explicitly warned not to attack the Glabrezu because it is much too powerful for them. They just had to come up with a way to get it to leave the area. They had several options including even just roleplaying and convincing it to leave. They chose to attack it anyway, but only in order to lure it to another area. It wasn't a terrible plan because it could have worked. Their only mistake was not determining how in the world they would outpace a huge sized creature with reach and a higher speed. I don't know what they were thinking. The other PCs are running back to where these 2 PCs and the Glabrezu are. I don't know what they have in mind in order to help. If they roleplay well, they can talk their way out of this situation. If they attack it, *shakes head*....

I think just using one flaw isn't so nasty. The penalty of the flaw may not even really be in the fiends favor compared to the feat chosen. Which is the enticing part for this PC.

But in the long run, I think that if a PC kept getting penalties to various skills, saves, ability scores, etc, that adds up over time. So even though a caster might pick a feat that boosts CL for spells, or picks metamagic feats or whatever he'll do to improve his spellcasting, all those penalties can really hurt. At first glance, just within the first 4 levels, he could possibly take a -3 to each saving throw and a -6 to initiative if I chose those flaws. Sure, his casting might be better, but his initiative will suck and he'll have a harder time to save any spells. And if I let him pick the feat before I pick the flaw, I can balance the side effects appropriately.

Of course, this might cripple a PC, but that is the point. He made a deal with a demon. The fun factor begins when he realizes his mistake and tries to overcome this "curse". That's an adventure in itself. So it isn't as if he won't have the chance to "fix" his PC if he wanted to.