[Gleemax]Another thing not to like.

Actually you should have done your research into knowing they where going to make that feat before you published it.

"Trade Secrets" and NDA's usually mean they can't talk about stuff coming out beforehand, so there's nothing out there to reasearch.

And on top of that, how can it be known YOU came up with it and not WotC, which you just copied by breaking into their office or by getting a playtest version or maybe by hearing someone from WotC talking about it.

What PROOF could you have that you came up with it first, without PROVING that the people at WotC didn't already have it on the table? Because thats exactly what you are doing.

Presumably, by registering for Gleemax, you register an e-mail address, a name, maybe even a zip code (a lot of networking sights do it). When you make a post, there probably is a time and date stamp: I can go back to the log, and note that I posted Feat X at 12:30 AM on January 11th.

If Feat X later appears in a WotC product, I have pre-established my ownership of Feat X.

Similarly, if WotC comes out with a feat that's like something in the Netbook of Feats, the author cited in the Netbook has pre-established ownership of that IP.

You can track the time and date of things posted to the interweb. It would be weird for them NOT to do that.
 

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guildofblades said:
>>If wotc doesn't do this, someone will sue them someday. period. full stop.<<

Business is about risks. If they feel the risks are too high, then they shouldn't be saying they are trying to offer a broad based community site for the whole industry when their terms of service very clearly are saying they won't accept the risks that can sometimes entail. Going about a business concept half assed is a sure fire way to fail at it.

Accept the nominal risks of doing business or don't bother doing business.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

Pretty much my take on this. Until the ToS is revised to reflect that this is supposed to be an Industry wide board I will continue to treat it as a WotC board.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
"Trade Secrets" and NDA's usually mean they can't talk about stuff coming out beforehand, so there's nothing out there to reasearch.

Thats my point. How do you know they don't have it on the table?

As it is now you are automatically assuming that you thought of it and posted it first, with NO consideration that they are working on it.

By your own arguement, you can't know what they will have, and if they start it and have it set up then you post it independantly, all of a sudden they should cancel their plans or give you credit for something you didn't do.
 

Thats my point. How do you know they don't have it on the table?

As it is now you are automatically assuming that you thought of it and posted it first, with NO consideration that they are working on it.

By your own arguement, you can't know what they will have, and if they start it and have it set up then you post it independantly, all of a sudden they should cancel their plans or give you credit for something you didn't do.

Prefaced with IANAL:

....if I post something to Gleemax, there is a record of my post. If someone who sees it profits from it, they profit from my creative work.

If I talk with someone behind closed doors, there is no public record of my conversation. There may be a private record, but the point is that nobody KNOWS what I'm talking about outside of those who can't really talk about it. If someone comes up with the exact same thing, they did it independently, or due to an internal leak.

If they came up with it independently, it's first come first serve. If they have record of doing something with it before I do, they win the rights to it. If I do something with it before they do, I have the rights to it.

If they came up with it due to a leak, I can punish the leaker and perhaps challenge their rights to it.

If I post something to the internet before a book containing the same thing, independently developed, I've "published" it first, I have a public record of use before WotC's book came out, and thus, I have the rights to it, and WotC is infringing upon my rights.

Do you know much about Copyright law? Because though I'm not fully trained in it by any means, I have a pretty good layman's understanding of it, and by my understanding, the law already handles cases like this just fine. Whatever problem you're seeing doesn't really exist, because such cases have come up before, and are generally settled based on who did it first.
 


And proving such costs money.

I'm sorry, I missed your point. How does this show that Gleemax's new user agreement allowing WotC free access to all its content is better for the average Gleemax member than paying the poster for the work they do if WotC uses it?
 

GVDammerung said:
I'm looking at the "can't publish outside of Gleemax" language and wondering does it apply to Canonfire et al. If it does, fans of various setting will have to choose between posting something to Gleemax or Candlekeep etc. Or, if my supposition is correct, Gleemax just has to be the second posting site ie no posting after Gleemax.

Your last line takes matters the next step - to make Gleemax go, will Wotc tell Canonfire, Candlekeep etc. that they must now close and all Wotc IP, including fan created derivative works, will be on Gleemax? I surely hope not but that is not my question. Mine is narrower - after posting to Gleemax can you post the same material to a fan site like Canonfire, Candlekeep etc.?

IANAL, of course, but I don't think the Gleemax TOS effects sites like Canonfire at all. If WotC considered posting WotC IP on Canonfire as "publishing," they wouldn't let you do it in the first place.
 

guildofblades said:
If that extends to my trademarks as well, then the attempt to join the site for marketing purposes and community building is dead in the water also.

I don't think this is even legally possible. I mean, what if I decided to post trademarked White Wolf IP on Gleemax? Nothing in the Gleemax TOS could make WotC suddenly own it.

guildofblades said:
Somebody at WOTC must think we are all idiots....

Nobody is trying to trick you. This is about content created by fans that is meant to be freely used by other fans. Publishers using Gleemax to advertise non-WoTC will need to be addressed, but it hasn't yet.
 

hexgrid said:
IANAL, of course, but I don't think the Gleemax TOS effects sites like Canonfire at all. If WotC considered posting WotC IP on Canonfire as "publishing," they wouldn't let you do it in the first place.
I'm certain WotC considers putting stuff on Canonfire publishing. However, the concern that this won't be allowed is, I believe, based on misreading what Randy actually said.
Randy said:
Note that you are allowed (solely per the terms of the Terms of Use and Terms of Service) to use our IP when generating content that you put on our site, however you are not allowed to then publish that content anywhere else. So, for example, you could create an awesome campaign setting that takes place in some never before seen corner of Forgotten Realms and you could populate it with all the iconic D&D monsters you like. (We very much hope this is the kind of thing that this community and our toolset will inspire folks to do.) However, because the content includes D&D specific stuff that is not covered by the OGL (Open Gaming License), you could not, for example, turn around and publish it for sale in book form. Then again, if you invent and then post to Gleemax an original campaign setting (or rules system or whatever) that does not use any WotC intellectual property, you would still retain ownership and can publish that yourself if you like.
It is clear to me from the above that the new Terms of Service will simply allow you to use WotC's IP on Gleemax; use of the IP under other agreements (i.e. not "solely per the terms of teh Terms of Use and Terms of Service") isn't compromised. The reason you can't publish elsewhere, Randy says, is that it's Wizard's IP, not OGL - not because of Gleemax' terms of use.

The problem of non-WotC PI remains. I can't see how anyone will agree to post non-WotC PI to Gleemax under these terms of use; anyone that would will lose all exclusivity over these terms. That's economical suicide. This is so out of line with the site's aim, that I'm confident that this gaff will either not be present in the actual legal terms, or will soon be corrected. I believe WotC will only own property* that uses its own IP, and only to the extent that it doesn't draw on others' IP; this will be fair, and allow other publishers and companies to use the site.

* Oh, sorry, "the right to use it as we please" - unlimited but non-exclusive rights.

Edit: Another Comment-
What killed d20 System licensing, IMO, was WotC's change of license. At least, it was a dominant factor. Companies saw WotC could change the license from under them specifically to undermine their products. It wasn't likely, but it was possible, and they didn't want to put themselves in that position. Developing an OGL line was seen as superior.

WotC's "ever changing terms of use" will do the same. No company will agree to post things to a place where it constantly needs to look at the terms of use, and WotC can change them to whatever on their whim. Too dangerous. WotC really hasn't learned from the Valterra debacle.
 
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Yair said:
Edit: Another Comment-
What killed d20 System licensing, IMO, was WotC's change of license. At least, it was a dominant factor. Companies saw WotC could change the license from under them specifically to undermine their products. It wasn't likely, but it was possible, and they didn't want to put themselves in that position. Developing an OGL line was seen as superior.

What killed the d20 license, IMO, was too much product and too little quality control. The license ended up having almost no marketing value. There was nothing special about d20, because everything was d20.

Thanks for posting that quote, btw. I clearly didn't read it carefully enough the first time around.
 

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