[Gleemax]Another thing not to like.

[Ry]

As I think about it some more, I'm not against this TOS thing, just cautious. I'd like to see how they approach it in practice before I would throw my own work up on Gleemax, but it seems like a good-faith effort by WotC to encourage fan development for the sake of the game, and I can hardly be mad about that.

 

[Imaro]

You know, similar provisions hold true for about everything. You make a mod for a computer game, and the game's publisher has the right to take it and republish it. You put out a d20 game, and Wizards has the right to copy it.

Again, this is from the approach that you're only posting things that are related to D&D, MtG or another of WotC's games. What about totally new ideas, or things for other gaming systems. Suppose I create a new setting for nWoD and post it on my page at Gleemax. Now instead of it being my creation and under my control...WotC has the right to publish it under the d20 Modern rules and make money off of it. This isn't a question of me creating a feat or variant rules using their system, it's a question of IP that I created seperately from WotC's rules set. I understand this view here, as enworld is a mainly d20 site...but Gleemax is suppose to encompass all games, not just WotC games.

Another consideration is that say a game company is interested in what I've posted...they have to contend with the fact that WotC(a company with far greater revenue, profit, resources and marketing, than any other game company) could decide to publish it at any time, and "officially" which would compete with their product.

The thing is that, ultimately, they won't. You know, the people in charge of the "stealing ideas from the fans" dept. are also the people in charge of the "let's get ideas on our own" dept, and in the layoff-happy society we live in, I can bet you the R&D staff at Wizards wants nothing else but to show to Hasbro that their bestselling lines -- Magic and D&D -- absolutely need their own personal talent and that they couldn't be fired and replaced by simple forum reviewers.

This is your opinion, so I can't really argue against it...but I will site this post from another one of Randy's blogs...

DuvikIronBottom later comments "Also, [Gleemax']s intent isn't altruistic or anything. It was a calculated business maneuver that accomplishes two things...

1: Makes them lots of money
2: brings together folk from 'all around the world' so as to market further merchandise to them.

... The motivation is money. No more, no less."

Spardo already did an excellent job of answering this for me in the forums, but I thought it was worth calling more attention to:

"You know, it drives me nuts when people go skewering an enterprise because it isn't what they'd deem "purely altruistic". Is Gleemax a deeply-planned tool to assist in generating revenues for WOTC? Of course. As are all of the games you purchase (for their publishers, accordingly).

This doesn't, however, mean that there can't be an altruistic effect generated along the way. For the most part, the profitability of the venture depends on some degree of altruistic intent. Hell, let's look at Google. There's a company with the corporate motto, "Don't Be Evil". They produce a product that the average user never pays for and that the greater population as a whole has widely come to rely on. Yet they make money. If there weren't an incentive in the fact that Google's product generates revenue, there would never be an impetus for them to keep improving their product, and the altruistic venture would crumble.

Read some Ayn Rand. Capitalism is not an evil thing; done right, it is justification of hard work done well and reward for innovation by those who do what the rest of us can't.

Let WOTC reap the profits of its investments. If, along the way, we get a free online community out of it, who the hell are we to complain about somebody earning a buck?

I would add a couple of thoughts:
Spardo's intelligent commentary gives me great hope for this community. This is the kind of user-generated content I look forward to reading in all of your blogs!
The "No more, no less" part of DuvikIronBottom's challenge isn't entirely fair. It's probably true of Wizards, but it is most definitely not true of all of us employees. If my only goal was to make money, I wouldn't be working in the games industry. I'd probably be on Wall Street, or possibly grinding it out at a bunch of online poker tables. Instead I prefer to enjoy my job and in particular I like the way my current job allows me to build something that I think will be a truly Good Thing for gamers like me to enjoy for years to come. A lot of folks around the office have chosen to maximize their quality of life instead of their income. That has led us to work for a company that while it does attempt to maximize its own profits, it does so by producing products that bring people joy.

In the end any company is concerned with the bottom line, to think otherwise is naive. I'm not saying the guys at WotC are a bunch of hacks or thieves. But I'm also not going to claim I know for a fact none of them ever used another person's ideas or that they definitely wouldn't in the future. No they're not evil masterminds, but they are about making Hasbro money, and in the end that's what they're jos boil down to.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hence they own what you post on their site. To protect themself.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant.

Gleemax is an interesting step forward from that. The problem arises where people want credit. But really, how will you prove they used yours? The case is easy for something large, but for something like a feat or something like that good luck.

But then, how do you word that instead of what they are planning on having?

One way would be to say "If you post something good to Gleemax, we might use it in a book, and pay you for it."

That'd work.

The thing is that, ultimately, they won't. You know, the people in charge of the "stealing ideas from the fans" dept. are also the people in charge of the "let's get ideas on our own" dept, and in the layoff-happy society we live in, I can bet you the R&D staff at Wizards wants nothing else but to show to Hasbro that their bestselling lines -- Magic and D&D -- absolutely need their own personal talent and that they couldn't be fired and replaced by simple forum reviewers.

"They won't, trust them" isn't a very good principle for giving someone power over your creations. I'd generally trust WotC, but promises aren't worth the paper they're written on unless they've got some legal jackboot to back 'em up.

 

[Glyfair]

In the end any company is concerned with the bottom line, to think otherwise is naive.

I agree. However, I think part of the text you are quoting is off the mark.

... The motivation is money. No more, no less.

I agree that the motivation is money. However, to think it is money only is only looking at part of the picture. There is certainly a motive to create a great community here as well. They just aren't going to do it in such a way that costs money.

I'm sure that the purpose of those rules wasn't to steal ideas from the community, but to protect the company from lawsuits.

Does anyone honestly think WotC is going to find someone's work there and reprint it completely without compensating the creator in some way? Does anyone think WotC (or Hasbro) wants to take the PR hit from doing so?

 

[Imaro]

I agree. However, I think part of the text you are quoting is off the mark.


I agree that the motivation is money. However, to think it is money only is only looking at part of the picture. There is certainly a motive to create a great community here as well. They just aren't going to do it in such a way that costs money.

I'm sure that the purpose of those rules wasn't to steal ideas from the community, but to protect the company from lawsuits.

Does anyone honestly think WotC is going to find someone's work there and reprint it completely without compensating the creator in some way? Does anyone think WotC (or Hasbro) wants to take the PR hit from doing so?

This is what I don't get, from my understanding, game mechanics can't be copyrighted ( I mean how many companies use a roll d20+ modifiers, highest wins mechanic?) I know Talislanta, Heroquest, and a few others do and aren't under the OGL. Does this mean one of these companies could sue WotC for using this mechanic? Could WotC sue one of these companies?

So if someone creates a feat the mechanics can be used anyway...it's the exact reprinting of their descriptive text and maybe the name that couldn't be used. Am I correct in this thinking or totally off base?

 

[Korgoth]

I like how the blogging apologist is giving this lecture about the social decency of profit ventures and then says "Read some Ayn Rand."

Yes, in defense of Gleemax please read books by the person who celebrates the unregulated triumph of the individual will to power over any concerns for the collective good.

So is it the policy of Gleemax that they should be above the regulatory intervention of the unwashed masses?

 

[GVDammerung]

I can't address the question you asked because I am unsure of the legality of posting on Canonfire.com.

Is it allowed because its legal or allowed because they don't care or whatever.

In other words if WotC wanted to could they shut down Canonfire without legal issue.

Canonfire (Greyhawk), like Candlekeep (Forgotten Realms), like Planewalker (Planescape) etc. all electronically publish fan creations that use Wotc's IP to create derivative works. Wotc has expressly allowed this usage but they could pull the plug at any time. That is kinda the next question beyond the one I'm thinking about.

I'm looking at the "can't publish outside of Gleemax" language and wondering does it apply to Canonfire et al. If it does, fans of various setting will have to choose between posting something to Gleemax or Candlekeep etc. Or, if my supposition is correct, Gleemax just has to be the second posting site ie no posting after Gleemax.

Your last line takes matters the next step - to make Gleemax go, will Wotc tell Canonfire, Candlekeep etc. that they must now close and all Wotc IP, including fan created derivative works, will be on Gleemax? I surely hope not but that is not my question. Mine is narrower - after posting to Gleemax can you post the same material to a fan site like Canonfire, Candlekeep etc.?

 

[Gez]

Again, this is from the approach that you're only posting things that are related to D&D, MtG or another of WotC's games. What about totally new ideas, or things for other gaming systems. Suppose I create a new setting for nWoD and post it on my page at Gleemax.

Why would you do that? Aren't there nWoD forums and sites more appropriate than Gleemax for that?

WotC can say what they want to say, Gleemax will be first and foremost for WotC games.

 

[Warbringer]

I'm interested in how WoTC will handle some one who pots the basic content of an article, feat etc, under OGL in public domain (such as Enworld) then post the same content using WoTC IP 'tools' on Gleemax.

I wondering if this isn't just a an IP issue on the format of the content, as you remain rights to the IP of the actual content.

 

[Nellisir]

...after posting to Gleemax can you post the same material to a fan site like Canonfire, Candlekeep etc.?

The implication is no, you cannot. If it turns out you are allowed to, it'd probably be specific exceptions for those (once-upon-a-time WotC-authorized) sites.