GM'ing "Suggestion"

[Forrester]

A bard just entered my campaign, and I'm trying to figure out precisely how much he can get away with with this spell. Obviously, the spell has some very strong language that I think goes a bit too far (convincing someone that a pool of acid is really a pool of water?), but hey, magic's powerful and all that.

Here's the issue that *almost* arose last night; a valiant save on the enemy's part made it moot.

A barbarian is in combat with a minotaur. The bard "suggests" to the minotaur that there might be some better prey back in the direction where he came from (trying to get the minotaur to leave combat, as the barbarian was almost dead.). He was hoping the minotaur would fail his save, leave, and best of all, walk through a threatened area, and open himself up to AoOs.

Here's *my* question: it seems to me to be a stretch that the minotaur would keep walking if it were attacked *after* it was attacked -- that it would likely snap him out of his stupor, or at the very least allow him another saving throw, because he's now being asked to take an action that obviously threatens his life (not defending himself against intruders).

How would you DMs have played it? (I'm not asking the players, because I *know* what they will say! )

 

[Henrix]

I think that, at the most, such a suggestion would make the minotaur leave combat carefully. There's nothing that says it has to rush off immediately without heeding present danger.

There is nothing in that suggestion that says the minotaur has to leave immediately at all. It could go looking for that better prey some time later.

 

[The Souljourner]

Suggestion can be very powerful, but like you said, it's not all-powerful.

Situation: Bard says "Hey dude, you're beating us up pretty badly, obviously we're no match for you, so it must not be much fun. There's a guy *that way* that would be a lot more fun to fight."

Minotaur goes "Oh yeah, that's a good idea." and walks off.

At this point, if you let him go, he goes off and looks for someone better to fight in *that* direction for 1 hour per level. Fair 'nuff.

If you attack him and do damage after that... it becomes less clear. At best, I'd let him get another save with a +2 circumstance bonus. At worst I'd break it automatically (depends on the wording of the suggestion and how much damage was done). If you attacked and missed, I'd say he'd see it as more proof that you guys suck and aren't worth wasting time on.

It's a highly unclear area. Always make sure your caster spells out exactly what he suggests to the creature, and then base your actions on that. Like the spell description says, the suggestion has to be reasonable. If the minotaur was attacking because he was bored and you guys weren't really hurting him, then I'd say it works pretty well. If he was attacking because he's hungry and he's kicking your butt, then I'd say it would be unlikely to work, since you guys are obviously easy enough prey.

So umm.... yeah, you pretty much have to go by the seat of your pants.

-The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

Also, think situation modifiers. The minataur was in the middle of combat. Suggesting that he leave combat immediately for easier prey doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, think of suggestion like Wish. Literal interpretation will be most likely obeyed on a failed saving throw.

As a Bard my favorite way of using it is at the local tavern when I'm playing for everyone and I suggest that people give me a big fat tip.

 

[hong]

Here's *my* question: it seems to me to be a stretch that the minotaur would keep walking if it were attacked *after* it was attacked -- that it would likely snap him out of his stupor, or at the very least allow him another saving throw, because he's now being asked to take an action that obviously threatens his life (not defending himself against intruders).

That's not a bad use of suggestion, actually. A better one might be to suggest that the bard is actually a super-powerful spellcaster and the minotaur had better scarper or be killed.

In either case, I don't think another save after an AoO is warranted. Moving around on the battlefield doesn't mean you're not defending yourself; it just means you're liable to get hit more often. The minotaur could take the total defense option and get +4 to its AC while retreating out of battle.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My advice is too treat the Suggestion as an inclination and not a compulsion.

Even if the minotaur believes there are better picking elsewhere, he is not going to open himself up to AoOs in a full retreat. IMHO, he will take his attacks and step 5' back, offering his opponents an opportunity to disengage from him. If the PCs continue to fight, he will defend himself appropriately.

"Surrender" or "Flee" does work on enemy who are clearly beaten. These suggestions are helpful if you want to take live prisoners. While they are useful to make an enemy timid early in combat, such an inclination would necessary make the opponent act on it immediately.

Suggestion is extremely powerful in social interations. No necessity to make it extremely powerful in combat. It is still useful, though.

 

[Forrester]

Thanks all for their ideas on this -- keep 'em coming! The more responses I get, the easier it will be for me (and all of us, I suppose) to figure out what should probably be allowable and what should not.

 

[EOL]

My advice is too treat the Suggestion as an inclination and not a compulsion.

That's what I wanted to do to, but if you look at suggestion it's type is Enchantment(Compulsion). And from the DMG (pg. 73):

Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject's free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject's mind works. A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster.

Trust me I don't like it either, but that's they way it reads. As such it becomes very important to look at the reasonableness of the suggestion, give circumstance bonuses to the save (mostly in favor of the monster) if you don't think the suggestion is reasonable have it not work at all, but the way I read it once you've set the DC and determined that it's reasonable if the monster fails the save then he is compelled to follow that course of action.

Now that doesn't mean you can't follow Crothian's advice and use a very literal interpretation of the suggestion. For a bunch of other comments on suggestion and my own problems in ruling on it check out this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4612