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GMs: Guiding Morals in GMing

What is being discussed is the GM using this power of being the "secret keeper" to influence the course of the game by inventing myth on the fly for reasons that aren't simply down to filling in the details but which seem to have purpose or which might unconsciously have purpose because the newly created myth impacts how events play out. This includes invention of myth that would contradict myth that is already established but not yet revealed, ignoring the fortune mechanics of the game and choosing a favored fortune, and ignoring the rules of the game during adjudication of events to choose a favored outcome.
Any chance you have three examples of your three examples?

What is the act of a GM Influence that does not have the definition of "Something a player does not like".

This aesthetic is all but destroyed if nothing is actually out there and it's redefined as you go. There are other aesthetics like Narrative and Expression still available and that's fine, or you could focus entirely on Discovery as introspection about the character (assuming the character had some starting defined nature being explored) but the majority of typical Discovery play becomes unavailable to you.
So, here, are you saying each GM must make up every detail of an encounter...and whole setting and make some "offical notes"? Then the GM must follow the notes they made? So it's fine for a GM to make up anything and make a note last Sunday, but if they do it today it's Always Wrong?

And what about pure Improv? What if the GM has no detailed notes?



The "mystery box" does not really work as movies/TV shows are passive and games are active. They don't really fit together.
 

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soviet

Hero
Enlarging on this there is a technique that has grown up in fiction writing called by some "mystery boxes" where you present the audience early with something very strange and mysterious to spark their interest - "The Truth is Out There". You as the writer are yourself not supposed to have any idea what is in the mystery box. Instead, you just put layer upon layer of mystery boxes in front of the audience until at some point later on you the writer pick up all the mystery boxes and try to explain them, often by examining fan theories about what is in the mystery boxes.

"Bad Robot Productions" and JJ Abrams are one of the leaders in this style of storytelling.

And personally I find it absolutely infuriating, to the point that I refuse to watch anything produced by Bad Robot or former alumni of the company. Because compared to stories where the author has some sort of plan and plays fair and authors the story with a goal, the resulting transcripts are just nightmares that always wind around to some entirely disappointing conclusion with characters whose motivations were always muddled and unclear and whose endings never quite resolve all the contradictions and mysteries in any sort of satisfying manner. "Bad Robot" has been responsible for so much IP destruction over the years that if memes, narratives, characters, and fiction were people, "Bad Robot" would be serial killers. It makes me want to pull my hair out.

So when I see GM's recommending to novice GMs that they follow the "Bad Robot" technique of inventing everything on the fly and hoping it will work out in the end, I'm appalled. And in part I'm appalled because I've experienced this crap. I started a new campaign with this GM who was very vocal about how great of a GM he was and how good he was at improvisation, and it was immediately really clear that he was actually just leaning into our table talk and letting us create stuff and he had as much imagination and idea of what he was doing as a ferret. A modern Chat Bot could extemporize a better adventure than that. There was absolutely nothing to discover in that world. He literally could not have been involved and we could have played the game without him better than with him sitting there.
Yep. A good example of the opposite approach is Babylon 5, where more or less everything was planned out years in advance. There are mysteries in early seasons that are not paid off until years later, but when they do happen it is very powerful because you can see that this was always the answer, and when you rewatch it you can see how all the clues slot together (War Without End parts 1 and 2 being particular favourites of mine).
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Yep. A good example of the opposite approach is Babylon 5, where more or less everything was planned out years in advance. There are mysteries in early seasons that are not paid off until years later, but when they do happen it is very powerful because you can see that this was always the answer, and when you rewatch it you can see how all the clues slot together (War Without End parts 1 and 2 being particular favourites of mine).
Literally my favorite story ever put on TV.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Any chance you have three examples of your three examples?

Sure.

1) The DM decides that there are 12 goblins in the next room even though he previously wrote down that there are 4.
2) The DM decides that the goblin chief passed his saving throw, even though by the roll he just made, he would not have.
3) The DM decides that a favored NPC is able to take 4 actions on the same turn or is able to do some normally lengthy process as a free action or that a favored NPC is automatically able to move a heavy barrier, even though he would adjudicate a PC attempting to take the same actions differently.

What is the act of a GM Influence that does not have the definition of "Something a player does not like".

Limiting player agency, whether or not the player likes the outcome. I only tend to cite "things a player might not like" because it clarifies why this could be a problem. But the reverse also happens.

1) The DM decides that there are 0 goblins in the next room even though he previously wrote down that there would be 4.
2) The DM decides that the goblin chief failed his saving throw, even though by the roll he just made, he would not passed.
3) The DM decides that a NPC deliberately does stupid actions or attempts things which he is likely to fail at or doesn't exercise powers and capabilities that the NPC has or otherwise is played suboptimal manner in order to ensure the NPC fails. Or the DM decides than a NPC with 40 hit points remaining dies to a blow that did 10, because he just needs the NPC to go down.

This is the same thing but with the GM deciding that he doesn't want to risk the NPC's "winning" at this moment. Honestly though, this line of questioning is to me a red herring, because while there are trends and likelihoods, there isn't something all players agree is the most fun especially when it comes to details like this. There are only general standards that the table expects to adhere to. The situation might be similar to when you are solving an escape room where some people in the group want clues and some don't, and you may even have people agreeing to get a clue that don't prefer it merely to not be perceived as being difficult or anti-social. So focusing on what a hypothetical player in a group may or may not "want" especially in a discussion of Illusionism, which generally involves events that players aren't aware of, is not helpful.

The important thing to focus on IMO is that regardless, the GM's choices to ignore myth, fortune, or rules constitute fiat management of the game, which means that whatever is happening the GM is getting what they "want".

So, here, are you saying each GM must make up every detail of an encounter...and whole setting and make some "offical notes"?

What I'm saying is a good bit more nuanced than that, and anyone who has actually read my discussions of the topic would understand that. What I am saying is that quality preparation (preparing the right things in the right way) is generally preferable to no preparation or bad preparation.

Then the GM must follow the notes they made?

And again, what I'm saying a lot more nuanced than that. What I'm trying to explain is what happens when you don't. I have outlined that GMs are all powerful and as such it's not obvious how players get any agency. Three important ways GMs allow players to have agency is by limiting themselves through rules, by limiting themselves through myth, and by limiting themselves through submitting to the "dice" (or whatever mechanic you use to randomize). GMs can also extend to players direct agency by asking them what happens. Each of those ways is important and has different utility and provides for different aesthetics of play. A GM doesn't have to follow the notes that they made, but if they don't then the game suffers certain consequences and it may be much more artful to follow your notes. Further, I've argued that the more artful and skilled you become, the less temptation you are going to feel to throw out your notes because you've done a better job preparing and you understand better the costs of changing myth mid-game.

So it's fine for a GM to make up anything and make a note last Sunday, but if they do it today it's Always Wrong?

And again, I never said that. What I said that what you made up "last Sunday" is far more likely to be fair and unbiased and not subject to metagaming against the players to get your way, than what you make up in the middle of a session. If you are waiting till the player's proposition to make things up, you never can be sure whether you are being fair because now that you know what the players are actually going to do, you can't be sure if that knowledge is influencing your improvisation of what is there. For example, you might have never intended the mooks to be wearing sentient magical cloaks that attack the players, but after seeing how the mooks went down "too quickly" you decide that the magical cloaks now animate and attack as a complication.

And what about pure Improv? What if the GM has no detailed notes?

Then a lot of different problems crop up that a novice GM will probably be unprepared to handle and may sorts of aesthetics of play won't be fully supported at that time. You'll be winging it, and that will impact how the game plays out. There is a reason most narratives aren't made without some sort of preparation. And GMs need to understand that, and skilled GMs do understand that. Going back to my article on "Techniques for Railroading", if you prepare a detailed plot and timeline of events you may be a railroader. But if you improv everything, you are a railroader. The players might not know. They might not care. But improv heavily overlaps some of the more important techniques for railroading players, and if you are doing pure improv you are almost certainly just laying tracks down ahead of the players. Again, that's fine and you can run a fun game that way, but it's incompatible with certain claims about the game that is being ran.

The "mystery box" does not really work as movies/TV shows are passive and games are active. They don't really fit together.

Of course they do. The "mystery box" technique doesn't depend on whether the narrative is passive or active. Indeed, one aspect of the "mystery box technique", gathering fan theories up and deciding which one is the most interesting and making that one true, benefits from having an active audience. You can of course do it with a TV series because of social media, but its easier to apply in a tabletop RPG which doesn't have sunk production costs and production schedules.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I have a question. The job of the GM, in any system, is to adjudicate player actions, which by their very nature change encounters, which by extension means that the job of the GM is to change encounters on the fly (for some value of 'change'). I think you'd need to be way more specific for your statement here to carry water.
Not sure what you mean here.

If by "change encounters" you mean it's the GM's job to knock the foes down when their h.p. reach 0 due to PC actions, that doesn't count as change in the way I mean it; it's just following the rules of play.

I'm talking about changing the underlying parameters of the encounter - adding (or subtracting) foes on the fly, changing their hit points or abilities on the fly, and so on, in reaction to the PCs having too easy (or tough) time of it.
 

aramis erak

Legend
(Too lazy to quite directly) In re "has to adjust on the fly" - totally expletive wrong.
No GM has to adjust anything on the fly. They just have to accept that there are consequences either way.
Adjusting the situation is always a choice. Usually out of disdain for potential endings.

Some games, I don't bother adjusting at all. The situation is what it is, I don't give a rat's arse how it resolves, provided it resolves. If it's a TPK? Fine. If it's a party triumph due my miscalculation? Fine. If it's bittersweet? Fine.

I've seldom had a player complain about a TPK which resulted from their actions. I've had a lot of players complain when they found out the GM fudged a roll. In some cases, going off because I didn't let their character die. (In one case, the player thought I'd fudged a roll to save them, but in truth, the badguy simply failed a roll to hit...)

If one doesn't want to let the dice decide the outcome, quit using the dice, and you won't feel the need to fudge them.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Please read the thread before commenting.
Mod Note:

You might want to reconsider how you talk to your fellow ENWorlders. Repeating that phrase comes across as increasingly condescending with each iteration. Condescension is not conducive to civil discourse. And civility is held in high regard here.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
First of all, I did say, "at least to me", so of course it's my preference. I don't see any reason to bring that up unless you either didn't read my post fully or are trying to score rhetorical points.

You know, you asked me for the benefit of the doubt when you deemed that your post seemed overly harsh… and I readily granted it with no hard feelings. I’ll now ask the same courtesy to not assume the worst.

Yes, I read what you wrote. I think we’re in agreement that as a preference, it’s the person we’re talking about and not the system.

If you agree with that, which I think you do, then I think perhaps you may see why I’m disagreeing with @Celebrim. He’s not stating it as a preference.

Secondly, campaign notes and setting material have existence outside of any PC, so no, the world absolutely can exist outside of play. I have over 100 pages if setting material for my homebrew, most of which I created prior to any campaign starting up, as proof of that.

It’s proof that you’ve written things down. It’s not proof of anything else. If I imagine a world and populate it with people and locations and mark it with events and epochs and all of that… I’ve imagined a world.

If I then use that world as a setting for an RPG… meaning players are introduced to it and have an impact on it through their characters… if they are allowed discovery through play… that’s something else.

Discovery can only happen through play. So in the context of RPGs, nothing exists outside of play.

what are you actually saying? Because neither of your arguments make logical sense to me, so I must be missing something.

I’m saying that an RPG setting that is never played doesn’t exist independent of play. The whole point of an RPG setting is to be played.

We were talking about the act of players discovering things about the setting through play, right? If you don’t play, then nothing is discovered.

So take your 100 page of notes and imagine you’ve never ised it for play. In what way would anyone discover anything about it if not through play?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You know, you asked me for the benefit of the doubt when you deemed that your post seemed overly harsh… and I readily granted it with no hard feelings. I’ll now ask the same courtesy to not assume the worst.

Yes, I read what you wrote. I think we’re in agreement that as a preference, it’s the person we’re talking about and not the system.

If you agree with that, which I think you do, then I think perhaps you may see why I’m disagreeing with @Celebrim. He’s not stating it as a preference.



It’s proof that you’ve written things down. It’s not proof of anything else. If I imagine a world and populate it with people and locations and mark it with events and epochs and all of that… I’ve imagined a world.

If I then use that world as a setting for an RPG… meaning players are introduced to it and have an impact on it through their characters… if they are allowed discovery through play… that’s something else.

Discovery can only happen through play. So in the context of RPGs, nothing exists outside of play.



I’m saying that an RPG setting that is never played doesn’t exist independent of play. The whole point of an RPG setting is to be played.

We were talking about the act of players discovering things about the setting through play, right? If you don’t play, then nothing is discovered.

So take your 100 page of notes and imagine you’ve never ised it for play. In what way would anyone discover anything about it if not through play?
The act of creation is of value in and of itself, for one. It's actually the most enjoyment I get out of the hobby; as much as I like running and playing, worldbuilding is my true love in gaming. What it seems you're saying is that all of that is meaningless unless and until you sit around a table and unleash your creation on some PCs. I cannot accept that, and while I'm sure you don't mean that opinion to be insulting, that is how it feels to me.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
No, I'm not.



I mean I just literally cited that as an example of an equivalent process to progenerating the content. Are you even reading anything I write?

Yes. I find your arguments to begin with the conclusion and then work backward. But I think your “Schrodinger’s trap” criticism reveals a real flaw in your thinking.

So what about the question I posed? If I use a bunch of tables to generate a random dungeon and record it all a week before play, is that different (as it pertains to your take on discovery) than if I did so at the moment of play?

Do they both allow for discovery?
 

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