Gnome Favored Class: BARDS?!?

[KarinsDad]

Are gnomes friendly and prone to interaction in some manner? Are they a "likeable" race? One that most other races like to have around? They are prone to playing tricks and telling jokes by description.

I think you are focusing on those aspects of Gnomes that support your POV and ignoring those that do not.

Personality: Gnomes adore animals (Druid), beautiful gems (Rogue), and jokes of all kinds (Bard). Gnomes have a great sense of humor, and while they love puns, jokes, and games, they relish tricks—the more intricate the better. Fortunately, they apply the same dedication to more practical arts, such as engineering, as they do to their pranks.

Gnomes are inquisitive. They love to find things out by personal experience. At times they’re even reckless. Their curiosity makes them skilled engineers, since they are always trying new ways to build things. Sometimes a gnome pulls a prank just to see how the people involved will react.

Read the beginning of the Bard section. It is all about music, lore, and entertaining.

Not about playing pranks and tricks.

Read the beginning of the Rogue section. It mentions Rogues as silver tongued tricksters.


I do not disagree with you that the entertainment portion of Gnomes telling jokes can easily apply to a Bard class.

But, I think that the concept of playing pranks on people, especially the wrong people, is something that could get a Bard in jail real quick. And since Bards often rely on their audiences and patrons for support, this is a bit of a dichotomy.

Bards share music and lore and entertainment, they do not typically go around playing pranks on others.

That is more of an Illusionist or Rogue role than a Bardic role.


So although from its personality and its other magical abilities, a Gnome could easily be a Bard, a Rogue, an Illusionist or even a Druid, I do not think Bard is the best match. I think WotC did a: "We already have a Wizard as a favored class. Let's not have two races with the same favored class.".

Gnomes have been Illusionists (and Assassins and Fighters) since 1E. They could not even be Bards in 2E (only Fighters, Thieves, Clerics or Illusionists). In 3E, they were favored class Illusionist and had no bardic tradition. Now, they are suddenly favored class Bards. There is a slight overlap there, no doubt. But, it is not a perfect fit and it is definitely a total DND racial paradigm shift.

Btw, even the 3.5 Monster Manual states that Gnomes in combat make heavy use of illusion magic and carefully prepared ambushes and traps whenever they can. That again sounds more like Illusionists and Rogues than it does Bards.

I think WotC fumbled the ball a bit here. They appear to be attempting to turn the Gnome favored class into a Half Illusionist / Half Rogue where Bards have some of those skills/abilities, but they really do not fit that role. WotC yanked Gnome Bard out of their butts for 3.5 whereas over 15 years of DND tradition (since Bards were introduced) indicated that Gnomes were typically not and sometimes never Bards.

They screwed the pooch on this one, not even looking back into their own history.

 

[irdeggman]

I think you are focusing on those aspects of Gnomes that support your POV and ignoring those that do not.

Actually I am looking for a class description that "best" fits with the racial description of the gnome. I think of the core rules that the bard comes closest. None of the other classes are a "better" fit and the bard does a better job of handling the interaction issue.

I did point out earlier that I think the Artificer (from eberron) would be a "better" fit - but that is not a core class.

Read the beginning of the Rogue section. It mentions Rogues as silver tongued tricksters.

But they aren't as good at misdirection - as in the Illusion aspect that many people want to associate with gnomes. The bard does both.

But, I think that the concept of playing pranks on people, especially the wrong people, is something that could get a Bard in jail real quick. And since Bards often rely on their audiences and patrons for support, this is a bit of a dichotomy.

Ahh that is where their magical spells come in. Mostly Illusion based.

Bards share music and lore and entertainment, they do not typically go around playing pranks on others.

That is more of an Illusionist or Rogue role than a Bardic role.

Compare the spells from the Illusion school and the ones that are on the Bard's list. While the Bard doesn't get all of them he does get most of them in addition to other spells that fit the gnome aspect.

Gnomes have been Illusionists (and Assassins and Fighters) since 1E. They could not even be Bards in 2E (only Fighters, Thieves, Clerics or Illusionists). In 3E, they were favored class Illusionist and had no bardic tradition. Now, they are suddenly favored class Bards. There is a slight overlap there, no doubt. But, it is not a perfect fit and it is definitely a total DND racial paradigm shift.

Btw, even the 3.5 Monster Manual states that Gnomes in combat make heavy use of illusion magic and carefully prepared ambushes and traps whenever they can. That again sounds more like Illusionists and Rogues than it does Bards.

I think WotC fumbled the ball a bit here. They appear to be attempting to turn the Gnome favored class into a Half Illusionist / Half Rogue where Bards have some of those skills/abilities, but they really do not fit that role. WotC yanked Gnome Bard out of their butts for 3.5 whereas over 15 years of DND tradition (since Bards were introduced) indicated that Gnomes were typically not and sometimes never Bards.

They screwed the pooch on this one, not even looking back into their own history.

But in 3.5 they also gave gnomes illusion based spell like abilites that they did not have in 3.0 So which part is "scewing the pooch" and which part is someone reading the specific aspect of the class (e.g., the bardic tradition) that they wish to in order to justify their position.

Look at the overall picture and try to fit in what gnomes are about and what a bard can do (and is best at) and then compare these to rogues or wizards and see which is actually the "best" fit.

Personnaly I think gnomes have historically gotten the shaft as not very well developed race. They are liek an afterthough and have never had the type of write ups that elves and dwarves have had. And while halflings also suffer from that lack of attention too - many people draw on the hobbits from Lord of the Rings as their inspiration.

 

[KarinsDad]

But in 3.5 they also gave gnomes illusion based spell like abilites that they did not have in 3.0 So which part is "scewing the pooch" and which part is someone reading the specific aspect of the class (e.g., the bardic tradition) that they wish to in order to justify their position.

Look at the overall picture and try to fit in what gnomes are about and what a bard can do (and is best at) and then compare these to rogues or wizards and see which is actually the "best" fit.

I am looking at the big picture. You appear to be focusing on the 3.5 picture only.

Gnomes started out being Miners, Fighters, and Illusionists. Later on they picked up Rogue and Cleric.

For nearly 30 years, that is what they were. For over 15 years since the introduction of Bards, they did not have a Bardic tradition and for 10 of those years, they could not even take the Bard class.

Now suddenly, they are Bards.

That's because their racial characteristics and preferences have been changed.

Personnaly I think gnomes have historically gotten the shaft as not very well developed race. They are liek an afterthough and have never had the type of write ups that elves and dwarves have had. And while halflings also suffer from that lack of attention too - many people draw on the hobbits from Lord of the Rings as their inspiration.

I agree with you here.

But, instead of building up on the strengths of Gnomes for 3.5 (which they did a little bit with the illusion magic), WotC totally changed their racial concept.


It's like suddenly saying that Elves should now get racial abilities to make them good Monks.

Or Half Orcs should now get racial abilities to make them good Sorcerers.

It is totally out in left field compared to what Gnomes traditionally in DND have been. WotC totally switched gears on Gnomes. That's all I'm saying.

In 1E, Gnomes had an entire magic field called Illusions, just for them and humans. No other race could be an Illusionist.

That was their schtick.

That schtick is now totally diluted and changed.

 

[irdeggman]

I am looking at the big picture. You appear to be focusing on the 3.5 picture only.

That was the entire point.

It was a 3.5 question. . . . . .

Therefore the POV should be from the point of why is the 3.5 gnome's favored class bard?

Too many other things have changed in the mechanics to look at it any other way.

 

[irdeggman]

I am looking at the big picture. You appear to be focusing on the 3.5 picture only.

Gnomes started out being Miners, Fighters, and Illusionists. Later on they picked up Rogue and Cleric.

For nearly 30 years, that is what they were. For over 15 years since the introduction of Bards, they did not have a Bardic tradition and for 10 of those years, they could not even take the Bard class.

Now suddenly, they are Bards.

That's because their racial characteristics and preferences have been changed.

No it is actually because the bard class itself has been altered.

To get the total picture compare 1st ed illusionists to 2nd ed illusionists to 3.5 illusionists and at the same time compare 1st bards to 2nd ed bards to 3.5 bards and also 1st ed gnomes to 2nd ed gnomes to 3.5 gnomes.

 

[DarkKestral]

Exactly. I did say interaction didn't - yes I did.

Perform is not really an interaction skill, like say bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and even intimidate. Although intimidate is not on the bard's class skill list - it is Cha based and Cha is the bard's prime ability.

And Bard is the only core class that has Speak Language as a class skill - never underestimate the value in that one.

Considering that almost every core monster and most non-core monsters that can speak have common as an automatic language, as do all PC races, I'd argue it's almost impossible to underestimate Speak Language, because it is worthless in 99% of situations, and tongues or comprehend languages are suitable for most of the rest.

 

[irdeggman]

Considering that almost every core monster and most non-core monsters that can speak have common as an automatic language, as do all PC races, I'd argue it's almost impossible to underestimate Speak Language, because it is worthless in 99% of situations, and tongues or comprehend languages are suitable for most of the rest.

Unless they are trying to "hide" communication.

Or you are tyring to translate their written information.

 

[Fieari]

The tricky one is the half-elf fighter/rogue/cleric/MU. I think you're stuck with Fig 1/Rog 2/Cler 3/Wiz 3, advancing as a Mytic Theurge and taking a rogue level every so often... or you could let your Cleric levels pause after a point like a real old-skool half-elf, and take Arcane Trickster levels.

I think the wizard's CharOp board covered this one pretty well with this build: Gothina Tina, the Ultimate Quadruple Threat.