Gnome haters? It's Lockwood's fault!

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

WHFRP gets the dwarven "damn the torpedoes" attitude right with demonslayers, IMO, whereas D&D gives dwarves "defenders"! Hardly inspiring stuff for generating enthusiasm for playing the race.

The dwarven defender PrC actually grew out of a single character in the Ptolus campaign (he was statted up in a recent Delver's Guild update), and I don't think he was supposed to be emblematic of an entire race.

 

[prosfilaes]

I think they should go a step further; no half-orcs, no orcs. PC monsters should be a novelty, not a standard, IMO.

Half-orcs aren't monsters; they're people frequently raised with humans.

Give the strength bonus and barbarian favoured class to dwarves....it's easy to envision a dwarvish berserker, and a bonus to constitution doesn't have as much currency as a bonus to strength.

Everyone complains that dwarves are too strong, and you want to make them stronger? Not only that, but smaller creatures tend to be weaker than larger creatures; having dwarves be stronger than humans would be a little counter-intuitive.

Gimli never struck me as a berserker, and I personally don't see dwarves as a whole being berserkers or barbarians. It would require a change to the rules; I don't think dwarves should have a favored class that the average dwarf, being LG, can't enter.

as in, orcs are obnoxious, and I don't want them in PC parties because they cause unnecessary disharmony, using the race as an excuse.

I don't personally see people I've played with playing orcs as an excuse to cause disharmony.
I'm unsure what you mean by obnoxious here, but they don't lose any more charisma than dwarves do.

They're designed to be killed by PC parties because they're obnoxious and unreasonable, not tolerated as a necessary evil

I think that's a stylistic question. I personally don't prefer the playing style where PCs can go around murdering orcs just because they are orcs and they are infringing on what humans feel is their lebensraum. At least in my worlds, most larger towns tolerate anyone that can behave themself in town, and given that there's no reason for them not to be PCs.

And again, even if orcs are kill on sight, half-orcs are often raised in human societies to human parents. They are people.

I think D&D could use more Gimli and less Grishnack, not more...WHFRP gets the dwarven "damn the torpedoes" attitude right with demonslayers, IMO, whereas D&D gives dwarves "defenders"! Hardly inspiring stuff for generating enthusiasm for playing the race.

The guy in the campaign I'm in who's playing a dwarven protector doesn't strike me as unhappy with it. Again in my experience, people seem entirely happy playing dwarves of all sorts; we even had an all dwarf campaign a couple years ago. ("My character is going to take his warhammer and pound through the wall." "It's made of adamantine." "So?")

 

[rounser]

Half-orcs aren't monsters; they're people frequently raised with humans.

They should also be as rare as hen's teeth, and they patently aren't because every PC party who wants someone with +2 strength has one. What should be an anomaly are overrepresented in the game. It would get no better with full-blooded orcs, because the implied setting would have to change to accept such creatures in human cities...that's something that sits awkwardly with the role those monsters play in the implied setting.

Everyone complains that dwarves are too strong, and you want to make them stronger? Not only that, but smaller creatures tend to be weaker than larger creatures; having dwarves be stronger than humans would be a little counter-intuitive.

They're very broad with a low base of gravity. That could cover the physics of it.

Gimli never struck me as a berserker, and I personally don't see dwarves as a whole being berserkers or barbarians. It would require a change to the rules; I don't think dwarves should have a favored class that the average dwarf, being LG, can't enter.

Oh no! Not a change in the oh-so arbitrary rules!

Actually, given the scottish/nordic dwarves everyone uses, berserker fits particularly well. Dwarves should be the respected warriors of the game, IMO, not playing second fiddle to a monster half-breed. As iconic warriors (which they're supposed to be), they might even get some of the love reserved for elves - heck, WOTC might even make a buck out of it.

I don't personally see people I've played with playing orcs as an excuse to cause disharmony.
I'm unsure what you mean by obnoxious here, but they don't lose any more charisma than dwarves do.

We have different experiences then; unless playing against type, half-orc players I've played with tend to use their race as an excuse to be antisocial, comic-stupid, bullies, attention-seeking saps on the DM's time because they've done something "orcish" etc. It gets old, real fast.

They are people.

Tell that to a dwarf who hasn't bought into 3E political correctness.

The guy in the campaign I'm in who's playing a dwarven protector doesn't strike me as unhappy with it.

Good for him.

 

[rounser]

To get back on topic, here's something from Jeff Grubb:

I take the blame for the gnomes as well, the small techno-driven creatures that started in Krynn and have now spread to campaigns throughout the multiverse. In many ways they were intended as a satire on my previous occupation as an engineer--indeed, the ideal gnome invention goes through a deep development process, as it attempts to solve the problems of the last development process. Again, though the Krynnish gnomes are mine, the gnomeflingers and the other great inventions within Mt. Nevermind were Tracy's.

 

[zoroaster100]

The female gnome rogue/wizard in my campaign brings a lot of fun to the game. The player is very fond of gnomes. His garden is full of of garden gnomes and his house if full of house gnomes. He plays the gnome as impulsive, brave and curious.

When the party encounters large monsters that focus on attacking the gnome because her small size makes her easy prey for grappling or swallow whole, he has accused me of being a gnomicidal maniac.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Actually, given the scottish/nordic dwarves everyone uses, berserker fits particularly well. Dwarves should be the respected warriors of the game, IMO, not playing second fiddle to a monster half-breed. As iconic warriors (which they're supposed to be), they might even get some of the love reserved for elves - heck, WOTC might even make a buck out of it.

Dwarves make the strongest fighters in the game. The most prominent iconic fighter is a dwarf. Dwarves are the respected warriors of the game.

This is different from also making the most kick-ass barbarians. I'm sorry you seem to have exclusively played with disruptive jerks who treated their character's race as an excuse to exercise their jerkishness, but your experiences don't actually have any bearing on the game's rules.

 

[The_Gneech]

Dwarves should be the respected warriors of the game, IMO, not playing second fiddle to a monster half-breed.

Dwarves playing second fiddle to half-orcs?

That's ... just ... a bizarre notion.

-The Gneech

 

[Klaus]

Dwarves playing second fiddle to half-orcs?

That's ... just ... a bizarre notion.

-The Gneech

Quoted for Truth.

Half-orcs are the most uderpowered of the core races, alongside half-elves.

 

[The_Gneech]

Regarding the original topic of gnomes, however, I've always found it a little odd that gnomes and dwarves were a separate race. From a folklore/origin standpoint, I've always seen dwarves and gnomes as two sides of the same coin -- Gimli and Rumplestiltskin, tho very different in personality, were both members of the same race IMO! Why should nonhuman races be monolithic?

-The Gneech

 

[Klaus]

I see the differenciation between gnomes and dwarves coming from Three Hearts & Three Lions. Two characters there remind me a lot of how these races were represented in 1e.