Gnome Illusionist level 1

[Arkhandus]

The general rule that I use is: If most of your spells allow for saving throws, higher INT is great...If you rarely use such spells, CON is more important. All in all, its just preference.


@Ark...maybe a Scythe. Gnome+Scythe=Scary...especially with the proper illusions.

Great. Now I'm getting images in my head of Billy (from the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy) walking around in a smaller version of Grim's hooded cloak and carrying the too-big-for-him reaper's scythe, telling someone in a spooky voice "I am the reaper." ......

 

[Arkhandus]

Depends on the spells you use and how you use them. Illusions more than any other spell school can be worked so that you deny enemies the chance to even make a save.

.....not Color Spray, though, which is what the lowly 1st and 2nd level gnome illusionists use to save themselves from marauding goblins and orcs in the middle of combat. I'm playing a generalist human wizard at present. 1st-level was harsh, and he hasn't had any more fights yet since hitting 2nd-level (yet), but at 1st-level all he could do was zap an enemy with Color Spray up to twice per day. Then hope that his cruddy Rays of Frost, Acid Splashes, and crossbow would suffice for actually defeating enemies that he could barely hit. The more foes you take down with Color Spray, the better your chance of surviving long enough to slay them with a heavy pick, greataxe, scythe, or glaive.

And the difference between 5 hp and 7 isn't that big, even at 1st-level, since the average orc will probably still render you unconscious in one hit, and the average goblin will still need probably two or three hits to do so, either way.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO a Con under 14 is suicide. Also, from doing a lot of NPCs, it seems that the game design expects a 15 in your main casting stat.

The 4th level stat boost comes just in time to qualify you for 3rd level spells (at 5th level). By the time you hit 7th level, you can afford a +2 Int headband (for bonus 4th level spells). 9th level (5th level spells) is a bit iffy, but you will have at least another +3 by 12th level (+4 headband, +2 Int from 8th and 12th level boosts). Around this time you'll also start encountering Tomes which give you another stacking stat boost.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Arkhandus]

Felix, my DM is going to allow me to use my bonus spell slots to cast extra level 0 and level 1 spells at 1st level (15 Int = 1 bonus level 2 per day, 17 Int = 1 bonus level 2 and 1 bonus level 3 per day).

Is this against the rules? What do you guys think?

That's houserules territory. It's not actually legal by the rules. Not that there's anything wrong with houserules. You don't get access to new spell levels until you have sufficient class levels in the appropriate class, and bonus spell slots for a spell level you don't have access to are worthless (until you get access to that spell level).

The wizard may be smart enough to keep an extra spell prepared of 2nd-level in his mind, but first he needs to develop enough magical energy or expand his spell matrices to hold and power that spell. In other words, he needs the further experience of gaining a few more wizard levels, in order to gain 2nd-level slots in the first place.

 

[Felix]

But since a 15 Int allows the capacity to "hold" a bonus 2nd level spell, and since higher level spell slots can be used to cast lower level spells, I can use that 2nd level spell slot at 1st level to cast a level 0 or level 1 spell.

This is a big assumption. I've never heard of getting a bonus spell for a level you can't cast. After a light browse of the SRD, I couldn't find language that specifically said otherwise, but I'd be surprised if there weren't.

Summon Hypersmurf

If you don't get your higher-level bonus spells before you can cast spells of that level, then you won't get a bonus 3rd level spell slot from a 17 Int until you can cast 3rd level spells, which is at 5th level. Here's your class spell slots and bonus spells breakdown, assuming you don't specialize.

1st Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 3; 1st Level: 1+1
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 3; 1st Level: 1+1

2nd Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 2+1
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 2+1

3rd Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 2+1; 2nd Level: 1+1
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 2+1; 2nd Level: 1+1

4th Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 3+1; 2nd Level: 2+1
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 3+1; 2nd Level: 2+1

5th Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 3+1; 2nd Level: 2+1; 3rd Level: 1
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 3+1; 2nd Level: 2+1; 3rd Level: 1+1

6th Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 3+1; 2nd Level: 3+1; 3rd Level: 2
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 3+1; 2nd Level: 3+1; 3rd Level: 2+1

7th Level:
Int 15 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 4+1; 2nd Level: 3+1; 3rd Level: 2; 4th Level: 1
Int 17 --- Cantrips: 4; 1st Level: 4+1; 2nd Level: 3+1; 3rd Level: 2+1; 4th Level: 1

This is with a constant 15 and 17 Int. At 4th level you will have the option to put another point in your ability scores. If the points go into Int, 7th level is the first time you will ever have more spells per day with a 17 Int versus a 15 Int.

Similarly, if a wizard is so intelligent that he gets a bonus slot for a spell of a certain level, but hasn't gained enough experience to have learned any spells of that level yet, shouldn't he be able to use that slot to cast a lower level spell?

Is this against the rules? What do you guys think?

It's not unreasonable, but I suspect the SRD language doesn't support it.

There are a lot of illusion spells which require a saving throw. Unlike direct damage spells, if your opponent succeeds at his saving thow, he'll be completely unaffected.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.​

Enemies only get saving throws if they interact with the illusion; if they have no reason to disbelieve the illusion or interact with it, they don't even get a saving throw. This will depend upon the DM's definition of "interact", of course.

Also, if there is proof the illusion is false, they need no saving throw to disbelieve.

In both of these cases, which will not be rare, the extra +1 to the DC yields absolutely no benefit.

 

[doosler]

That's houserules territory. It's not actually legal by the rules. Not that there's anything wrong with houserules. You don't get access to new spell levels until you have sufficient class levels in the appropriate class, and bonus spell slots for a spell level you don't have access to are worthless (until you get access to that spell level).

The wizard may be smart enough to keep an extra spell prepared of 2nd-level in his mind, but first he needs to develop enough magical energy or expand his spell matrices to hold and power that spell. In other words, he needs the further experience of gaining a few more wizard levels, in order to gain 2nd-level slots in the first place.

I disagree. The bonus spell slots aren't given based on experience. They are given based on intelligence. If a character has a high intelligence, he has more mental capacity. You aren't allowed to learn higher level spells until you have gained experience, and that makes sense. No 2nd level spells until you've spent enough time researching and adventuring to learn how to cast those spells. But if you're intelligent, you have the capacity inside your head to learn those things. Until you fill that capacity with bigger and more complex (higher level) spells, that capacity is like so much empty space, and can be filled up with whatever spells you already understand (i.e., at 1st level, 0th and 1st level spells).

The rules simply say that a 17 Int gives you a bonus 3rd level spell slot. Obviously, that slot cannot be filled with a 3rd level spell until you have learned your first 3rd level spell, at 5th level. But the rules do not say "You cannot use this spell slot to cast lower level spells until you have reached 5th level." The rules DO say that you can use a higher level spell slot to cast lower level spells.

 

[Felix]

....not Color Spray

You submit your character to level after level of +3 fort saves and 3hp cumulative to give yourself a 5% greater chance of affecting 1hd creatures with weak will saves. That's the choice you make.

 

[doosler]

Regardless of whether or not the rules technically allow me to use the 3rd level spell slot at 1st level to cast level 0-1 spells, my DM will allow me to do it.

With that in mind, how important is that extra spell per day at low levels? Is is important enough to out-balance the +3 HP/level, +3 Fortitude, and +3 on Concentration checks?

 

[Nifft]

The rules simply say that a 17 Int gives you a bonus 3rd level spell slot. Obviously, that slot cannot be filled with a 3rd level spell until you have learned your first 3rd level spell, at 5th level. But the rules do not say "You cannot use this spell slot to cast lower level spells until you have reached 5th level." The rules DO say that you can use a higher level spell slot to cast lower level spells.

You're wrong.

If the rules worked as you suggest, then all those levels which grant "0" spell-slots (i.e. only bonus spells) would be meaningless. See Ranger, Paladin and Bard daily spell progression for examples.

"--" in a spell-slot listing doesn't mean "0". It means you have no spell-slots of that level for that class.

For more proof of this, see every spellcasting monster.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Felix]

With that in mind, how important is that extra spell per day at low levels? Is is important enough to out-balance the +3 HP/level, +3 Fortitude, and +3 on Concentration checks?

That depends entirely too much on how many encounters per day, how often and easily you rest, which spells you prepare, how often you are forced into melee, etc.

We can't give you a definitive answer because there is none. I will say Con, Arkhandus will say Int. Take your pick; the arguments are laid before you.